inspired by lemmitors at https://lemmy.ml/post/49343381
any guy in it just for women to wear skimpier clothing should probably be investigated.
What a rabbithole to go down.
I agree no one should have the right tell someone else what to wear, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a tool of oppression in other cultures
Brown people culture bad amiright?
I absolutely did not say that, nor do I believe that in the slightest
You have no idea about other cultural norms and attires. Is the western man being oppressed when he has to wear a tie and suit to the office in order to keep his job? Do we free him from this oppression by ostracizing him or making it illegal for wearing a tie?
You know, this is a fair point, but there’s a few differences.
Not all jobs require a suit, there’s a lot of choice (you could get through life never wearing one). Its also only required during working hours. Not around the clock. Women have been killed over these expectations. Its not the same.
Women have been killed over these expectations
Is that really what you think muslims support?? Can you not conceive of people wanting to wear a hijab?? And even if not, why is it so hard to accept that it’s just a fact when they say it??
Well if they don’t support it, they get “honour” killed. Sooo do they really want it, or do they just want to live?
https://www.yahoo.com/news/world/articles/iranian-singer-sentenced-74-lashes-191112823.html
“they” are just a gray mass to you aren’t they? “They” clearly aren’t individuals in your eyes but a cudgel to wield against west asians under the pretense of human rights. Hundreds of millions of women all the same to you because they arent european…
Oh, sorry. Let me try that again. Hijab wearing women are forced to wear hijabs because their religion calls for them to be killed if they’re not wearing a hijab, some hijab wearing women would like to wear a hijab but other hijab wearing women would prefer not too, although they’re still forced to if they would like to stay alive.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/world/articles/iranian-singer-sentenced-74-lashes-191112823.html
Hijab wearing women are forced to wear hijabs because their religion calls for them to be killed if they’re not wearing a hijab
this is just wrong.
I can conceive of an individual woman wanting to wear one. However every woman I have known who wears one does because she must if she is to follow her religion and her society’s norms and her family’s dictates which would indicate that she doesn’t actually have the choice not to. I tend to believe that Muslim woman have a choice when they choose not to wear one because they often face abuse from other Muslims.
Is the western man being oppressed when he has to wear a tie and suit to the office in order to keep his job?
Suits are expensive and unnecessary. Some people (i.e. autistic) might have sensory difficulties when they wear them. If someone is vegan, most suits aren’t so it further restricts what they can wear and they have to worry more about differences in look due to the stricter dress code. Fortunately, being restricted only while working certain jobs isn’t as bad as being restricted in all public spaces.
Do we free him from this oppression by ostracizing him or making it illegal for wearing a tie?
No
But is he being oppressed?
Yes
Alright! So we agree that ostracizing people or making it illegal for them to wear what they wear is not going to lead to a more free society?
I already said that
Then I don’t know what you were trying to say with your original comment other than agreeing with me?
Hijab is not a choice, but a strong form of operession on women.
Women need the agency to decide for themselves, and not have the decision made for them by men, or the state. The only way any clothing is really oppressive is if it isn’t a choice, and in that way “not being allowed to wear” is the same as “being forced to wear”. It seems like you are defending the choice being taken from women under the mask of pretending to support the choice being given to them, by pointing to something not even being argued about as the covering mask, like a strawman.
If women were choosing to wear hijab with out the cultural, familial or state pressure you’d see women doing exactly that from other parts of the world where Islam isn’t enforcing it, you don’t see that because it’s not a free choice being made, acquiescing to pressure isn’t actually a choice.
Wherever you find Muslims in the world, you will find someone wearing hijab. If you punish women for wearing it, you are not better than those who punish them for not wearing it.
It’s extremely rare outside of countries that don’t enforce it, the Muslim women I know who still choose to wear hijab are from strict families. I have quite a few Muslim friends, most of whom are women, most of whom are not hijabis and don’t support the practice as public policy and find the pressure to wear it when they go home to be extremely uncomfortable. There’s a reason they feel that way, there’s a reason Muslim women who emigrate tend to stop wearing it, because they were pressured to do so it wasn’t a free choice. Is it 100% obviously no but frankly the exception proves the rule here
Do you think it’s possible that Muslim émigrés might feel social pressure in their new homes not to wear a hijab? I’ve heard quite a few women say they wear it for themselves as an expression of their faith. I can’t very well discount that possibility. Of course there are all sorts of social and familial pressures (and norms) that we all face. Many of which are largely taken for granted by those affected, even me and you!
With or without culture it is not your decision to make O Enlightened Savior!/s This thread is so full of poorly hidden sexist and racist nonsense that it is sickening. The western world is not the savior of the world, it is it’s oppressor, and the oppressor’s feigned concern while it eye’s those resources of the oppressed licking it’s lips, can only be inauthentic from such a position, clean your own house before trying to use the level of cleanness of someone else’s house as some kind of excuse.
there are plenty of muslim countries that ban burkas/some of the other extreme coverings, all anyone in the west should need to know to support it
But what if… it is? It very much could be, just like nuns clothing.
LOL. Yeah, the catholic church has never been oppressive. Wow.
Really wish I had that lady izdihar video right now… dude’s as confident as he is wrong…
It is a type of clothing that many women consciously choose and desire to wear. Some countries mandate it, but it is not much less rational than a mandate to cover chest and genitals in christian culture countries.
That thread was so ew
I’ll freely own the fact that I’m a western, white, woman and can never fully understand the cultural and greater context surrounding the choice as to why a Muslim woman, or a woman of any religion, creed, race, upbringing, etc would desire to wear a piece of clothing that would to me, with my cultural and greater context, be a symbol of my oppression.
The cool part is that I don’t have to understand why she would make such a choice, to support her right to make such a choice.
If you want to support womens rights, you can’t go around trying to restrict us. If you are concerned that women who are making these choices are doing so under indoctrination, coercion, etc, then instead channel your energy into making sure they, and all women, have safe places and resources to address those things.
It’s also ew that they pretend advertising and propaganda to change minds of muslims wouldn’t work. It totally would. You just need a good campaign specifically targeted to the patriarchs and matriarchs to make more liberal attitudes to clothing fashionable. It would totally work.
And at the same time work against the influence spreading of Saudi Arabia pushing their extremist wahabism schools. That’s where they should use the hammer.
Absolutely this, agree 100%
The cool part is that I don’t have to understand why
On most social issues, this is exactly what should be going on in everyone’s head. So many people are about punishing what they don’t understand, but it almost always backfires.
If we wanted to address communitarianism and extremism in secular society we would do better than criminalizing people’s harmless religious expression.
Civil rights according to liberals :
You are looking for the word “conservatives”
Conservatives don’t need their consent manufactured to go bomb people. This is for liberals. This is to make them believe that they need to save people by bombing them.
You are having an imaginary enemy that you call as “liberals” which is the cause of all bad things. You can hate liberals, but please first know what does it mean to be liberal. Liberal means liberalism like, or somebody liking liberalism. Which is associated with capitalism.
You are not using the right word. It’s like saying you hate dogs because they fly above you and shit on your clothes. That’s the wrong animal. It’s just dumb.
Because liberals are left-wing or right-wing when it suits them.
Left and right is also country/era dependent. It still says nothing.
Liberals in my country often echo the same themes as the right-wing.
No, I have never needed this. Your boogieman, “the liberal” is made up. I don’t know where you got this idea from.
Literally every foreign engagement since Iraq
Every woman has the choice to wear what she want, but the key is if she had a choice
VS
In the 1971 pic those on the top are bazaari, women of the rich merchant class who are the ones that paid to crush the student socialist rebellion and bring in the Ayatollah from Qom.
Two pics mean nothing bro, do you think there are not women like in the picture above currently? And if that were the case, what do you think it happened in Iran during the '70’s that caused this “issue” when it comes to religion? ahh, yeah, it’s always the us empire.
It don’t change anything, in any case is there a difference if a woman has the chois to wear a jihab or is forced to wear one.
i didnt understand what you tried to say
What is a jihab?
Did you know Reza Shah threw acid on women wearing the chador to force them to wear western clothing? You have no fucking idea what you are talking about
Same energy lol https://youtu.be/gE2OzGfIDLQ
Zerush is very concerned about jihab and Muslamic ray guns 😔
I know this case, but it also change nothing of what I said, the difference between having the option to wear what you want and being forced to wear what other want. In extremis like in the case which you mencioned, irrelevant if it is a chador, hijab or western clothes. if it is against what the women want.
The whole point is that it is a choice in Iran, it is not compulsory. Go to Iran right now and you will see women choosing not to cover their hair, walking around with the same fashion sense that you’d see in Venice Beach or NYC. There are women walking around in jean shorts and no head covering in Tehran every day without an issue.
I’m from South Spain and here are living a lot of muslim immigrants. As you say, a lot of women which cover their hair and others not. Normally they cover their hair when they are married. But same asin some other countries, it’s their decision, because religion or tradition to do it, when nobody is forcing to do it by drastic laws, like in some islamic theocracies where they don’t have a choice.
In Iran the law was recently paused and because of this, naturally some women don’t wear the hijab, but in other countries they are even forced to wear an burka without any liberty of choice. As said, it’s different to have a choice or to be forced by others.
Iran has paused the implementation of a new, stricter law requiring women to wear the hijab, an official said, with many observers believing that the bill could have sparked mass protests similar to those that erupted after the 2022 death of Mahsa Amini.
The controversial law, approved by Iran’s parliament in September 2023, will not be sent to the government this week as planned, according to Shahram Dabiri, vice president in charge of parliamentary affairs. The development effectively means that Iran has halted enacting the legislation.
https://www.euronews.com/2024/12/18/iran-pauses-implementation-of-stricter-hijab-law-for-women
Yes in some places there are conservatives due to the way that colonialism and imperialism has impacted the world but as far as Iran goes, your quote shows that the people of Iran were sufficiently progressive to reject an attempt by some conservatives to push a conservative agenda. They were defeated in this attempt by the masses who are still overwhelmingly Muslim, but understand that the Quran says hijab is voluntary because it explicitly states religion cannot be compulsory.
No one here has defended it being compulsory, Muslims by and large are not pushing for it to be compulsory, and those that do are embodying a reactionary mindset imposed on them via colonialism and imperialism. Instead of focusing on what Muslims do and don’t do it would be better to focus on ending capitalism so that people everywhere have more freedom from oppressive power structures, access to education and the ability to make decisions from a place of clarity and stability
But you understand right that the majority of the cases where people are enforcing dress on women it is people forcing western clothing on them? Do you not understand the hypocrisy of posting an image like what you did and saying that this has to be what the women want but implying that they want the thing that is repeatedly forced on them? The people in Iran chose this government with revolution and they have a constitutional democracy, they need to be empowered to work within their system. By posting pictures of women under the Shah wearing American clothes and implying this is best you are simply supporting imperialism against them
Yes, I understand perfectly, but it isn’t the same. I know that society, fashion and other influences can push a women th use some clothings, but she isn’t really forced by law to do it, she always has the choice, it’s different in countries where a women is drastically punished if she don’t wear a hijab or even a burka, even if she don’t want to wear it. Sorry if YOU don’t see the difference.
Thanks for letting me about a new worthless account to block
This is framing of women in western clothing as more progressive vs women in hijab/chador is incredibly racist. It relies on Islamophobic stereotypes that play Islam as a less advanced civilization when compared to the rest. Please do not forget that the Iranian revolution that got rid of the shah was an internal, peoples revolution against a hostile empires marionette. The ayatollah was the synthesis of contradictions inherent to Iranian society and depicting current Iranian society as regressive compared to the Iranian society under the shah is effectively saying that westerners “know better” what the Iranian people need than the Iranian people themselves. This is racist. Whatever point you want to make against theocracy is lost in all the racist baggage that comes with the image.
Not discussing the racism part but the Iranian revolution was actually two-folds, like the Russian revolution. The first revolution was brought by a vast array of people, from islamists to communists. Many people hoped to keep their progressive way of life and to get political freedom on top if it. Way they got is a second revolution in the form of a swift consolidation of Khomeini’s power and a theocracy, with political assassinations and vice squads.
What ever problems the Iranians have is their own to figure out and solve unless they explicitly ask for help, and certainly not from Imperialist Liberals from the Global North playing white savior for the “poor, helpless, primitive SaVaGeS” in the form of more Western bombs dropping on their Childrens heads to “free” them (from this mortal coil) like you’re doing them a favor and should thank you for it. /s
Womens rights is when literacy rate is 20%
Yeah ok.
Womens rights is when 19% child mortality rate
Oppression is when life expectancy go up
Something I notice about all these spaces. When I post facts about Islamic resistance, instead of people asking something “wow thats actually incredible, do you know how they did this incredible thing?” We end up stuck in a pattern of having literally the same conversations trying to explain basic concepts.
I know that I’m impressed when I see these statistics. Maybe thats because hijab made me stupid and oppressed 🤪 🫠
The reality of the Islamic resistance is so shrouded in mystery due to Islamophobia that it’s impossible for many to see their accomplishments as nothing more than a coincidence, which is ironically an anti-materialist way of viewing the world.
which is ironically an anti-materialist way of viewing the world.
Right. Couldn’t have said it better myself. The leadership of the resistance is way more rooted in real existing circumstances.
For example, one might ask about how the Islamic Revolution improved womens literacy so much in such a short period of time. Well, the leadership was aware that Iranian women of all ages and social/economic classes attended the mosque. So they set up womens reading programs in all the mosques, urban and rural. And women teachers were paid to run these programs for everyone from kids to grandmother’s. Seems pretty smart to me. Using the character of the masses as a way to promote social good rather than trying to mold them into whatever westernized ideation. Seems pretty rooted in materialism to me!
As you said though, such a thing gets shrouded in myth. The Iranians, the Palestinians, the Lebanese… portrayed as simultaneously magically resilient and well organized while also backwards in need of secularization. I dont have the words for this dualism but maybe you see what Im getting at.
I dont have the words for this dualism but maybe you see what Im getting at.
It reminds me of the noble savage trope, but perhaps there is a more apt comparison.
I was getting at it in the news mega thread where Shia Islam was discussed but until people take time to study the history of Islam at large, as well as of Shia specifically, it is impossible to have an accurate analysis of the resistance movement. Shia history has revolutionary sentiment built into the lineage, it reminds me a lot of Juche, with generations of revolutionaries passing down a revolutionary history long before marx was around to describe dialectical materialist analysis. The conditions demanded a revolutionary sentiment and a revolutionary analysis and that is within the DNA of the movement, continuing on into today. Repression has prevented Marxism from being as popular in the Ummah as it once was and will be again but revolutionary and liberatory sentiment within Islam predates Marxism and can be repressed but never removed.
Why compare with allied dictatorships with even worse reputation and not democracies?
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy?time=1974..latest&country=JPN~KOR~CHE~SWE~ISR~IRN
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/child-mortality?time=1994..latest&country=USA~SWE~FRA~IRN~RUS~JPN
“Democracies” and you put Japan, S Korea, and the zionist child-killing cancer on it.
Does Japan not have a functioning democracy? And what’s wrong with Korea?
If you’re going to say Iraq and Pakistan are dictatorships then you’d have to be an unashamed hypocrite to say Japan, functionality a one party state, isn’t.
You see, a democracy 😇 is when a country is operating as a forward military base for the US empire. 15 military bases and 55,000 US troops in Japan and 28,000 US troops in S Korea are just there to protect democracy 😇 from authoritarian China 😡 And DPRK 😡
And fake settler colony that has been committing genocide with US-made weapons since its invention is also very good democracy 😇
Anyways. Comparing health outcomes of countries that are economic beneficiaries of imperialist looting with a country under siege from imperialism is not making the point you think it is making.
Please take your zionism and leave.
Oh look a Strawman!
This is propaganda.
Lmfao I even linked where I saw that argument but don’t even bother with it you can just scroll further down. Everything is propaganda.
My mistake, I misread this and thought you were arguing for the opposite.
Fuck clothes. Like, FUCK CHOTHES! Do y’all think that’s the most pressing issue of our times?!?!?
Womens clothes are an incredibly easy litmus test. It’s so easy to check if someones “feminism” extends to trans women and muslim women unconditionally.
Who is upvoting this bullshit? Muslim women would vote to literally murder trans people if they could. They’re not on the same side.
Did you know that in Iran the state subsidizes gender affirming care?
Thank goodness the adults are in the room telling us that only one subject can be discussed in the world at a time
Leave the thread. Shut the fuck up. Do some self crit.
Filthy liberal, kids are dying right now in Gaza. The West is a lost cause.
https://lemmy.ml/post/49447631/26460710
HOLY SHIT WHY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT A THING THAT ISN’T GAZA
Nothing is more important than Gaza
Cuba? Sudan? Lebanon?
Global warming?
Respond to the original criticism. Just because something is the most important doesn’t mean literally nothing else can be discussed. Even things that are less important. Like the completely unrelated subject of racism towards muslims.
It’s like making it illegal for women to wear makeup and thinking you “freeing them of cultural values originating from patriarchy.”
NOT forcing a specific gender to look a specific way shouldn’t be this hard.
“Who thinks we should go to war with muslim countries to protect their women?”
Hands raised
“Who thinks we should safeguard muslim women in our own country?”
Crickets
“Who thinks we should go to war with muslim countries to protect their women?”
Hands raised
“Who thinks we should go to war with Israel to protect muslim women?”
Crickets
“Who thinks we should go to war with muslim countries to protect their women?”
Hands raised
“Who thinks we should end sanctions so muslim women and their children don’t starve to death?”
Crickets
But don’t you know that being against starving the muslims of Palestine is antisemitic!?
Israel has a right to
genocide, torture & rapeself-defence!truth nuke
I highly doubt many hands would be raised.
i’m so happy i wasn’t born in one of those misogynistic shitholes
america may suck but at least i can dress as slutty as i want here
a) that really depends on where in amerikkka you are
b) this is exactly about women dressing up as slutty as they want which might include not at all
c) claiming that the US is not a misogynistic shithole is absolutely laughable racist arroganceI think this is post is also about places like France trying to dictate that Muslim women can’t wear hijabs in certain places (namely pools).
Got it. Religious freedom as practiced in west is great. Can we move on to more advance topics now?
What the hell are you smoking??? Try walking around with a khimar in east germany e.g.
Try wearing red in crips territory. What youre talking about isnt related to religious freedom as adopted in western cultures.
Nobody was ever kill for wearing hijab A lot were killed for taking him off. Your false equivalence is revolting.
islamophobic murders exist and people absolutely get attacked and harassed for wearing a hijab. You ignoring the racism in your own country in order to brow-beat a region under constant attack under the guise of “human rights” is what’s revolting.
If I get attack wearing a cross around my neck is it automatically christianophobic ? It s not and it s highly dismissive and dishonest to pretend so. Also accord yourself on the point that I’m talking about religion not race.
The whole idea of wearing a piece of clothing for some god is cringe as fuck.
Cringe must of course be eradicated by the state.
true, but forcing someone not to wear something by law doesn’t address the cringe. the problem is the force, not the clothes.
basically same logic as banning people from sleeping on the streets = solving homelessness
Calling what others like to do “cringe” is the cringiest thing of them all
Type anything negative about Israel and the entire comment section is people saying how this doesn’t representat Judaism even when nobody mentioned it
But type negative something about Muslims and all the Reddit Athesists get in line to dunk on them and explain how evil they are. Gleefully discussing about publicly discriminating their clothing.
https://tariqacknickulous.substack.com/p/arabs-and-muslims-the-real-victims
Noam Chomsky highlighted this shift through his own experience as an American Jew, noting that by the 1950s antisemitism in the U.S. had been pushed underground, and Jews were gradually integrated into elite institutions. In its place emerged a new “legitimate” racism: anti-Arab and anti-Muslim bias. Unlike antisemitism, which by the late 20th century had to be hidden, hostility toward Arabs and Muslims could be expressed openly in films, books, politics, and policy:
“Antisemitism is no longer a legitimate form of racism. Anti-Arab bias, is a legitimate form of racism, meaning you don’t have to hide it. In most forms of racism you have to pretend you’re not a racist, so you have to pretend ‘I’m not antisemitic, I’m not anti-Black.’ You may be, but you don’t advertise it. Anti-Arab racism, you’re allowed to advertise. This was way before September 11 […] you see it in films, in books, in attitudes, it’s just not even hidden. Nobody will come out and say, ‘I’m an anti-Arab racist,’ but it’s everywhere, and every Muslim or Arab in the country knows it.
Lol that thread is a cesspool but I’m glad in classic lemmy fashion, its not shadow banned or locked.
I don’t want to add more fuel to the flames but it’s a case example of why I don’t take the EU seriously when it comes to free speech laws or claims of “secularity”.
France and UK were out here blocking Bosnia from arming itself during the genocide carried out by Serbia because they didn’t want a muslim country to exist in Europe.
feddit banned luigi and pro gaza content because it’s apparently illegal to discuss those topics in Germany, as if an internet forum talking about foreign news needs to be regulated by the government.
It’s not as bad as reddit, but there are some seriously god awful comments on that post trying to justify poorly disguised ethnic filtering laws.
