Q1: When was consensus established to name the page Persecution of Uyghurs in China?
A1: The current title reflects the consensus established in the most recent move discussion (22 January 2024). Two previous widely attended move discussions (30 June 2020 and 1 April 2021) had resulted in this page being titled Uyghur genocide. Please see Logs and discussions below for the full list of move discussions. In these discussions, editors discussed reporting from reliable sources in light of WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CRITERIA, the first two times establishing an affirmative consensus that the title “Uyghur genocide” is an appropriate name for the article. The third debate, immediately following a 12 January 2024 discussion that was closed as “not moved”, citing WP:NCENPOV as the naming convention guideline justifying a shift to the new name.
Shouldn’t you be discussing this on wikipedia?Apparently their editors don’t think that there is enough credible evidence of a genocide as well, hence the name change.
The name changed because it doesn’t meet the statutory definition of the law. This has zero to do with it being a genocide outside of one narrow definition. This is the same logic that Maga uses to deny Trump is a rapist
People also argue if what is happening in Palestine is a genocide. There are many people who don’t believe what happened to the Native Americans is an ongoing genocide or what the US has done by locking up and destroying minority families (also a genocide). Just because they aren’t actively slaughtering them doesn’t suddenly make it not a genocide.
The name changed because it doesn’t meet the statutory definition of the law. This has zero to do with it being a genocide outside of one narrow definition
not the impression what I got. See the discussion about it here, it seems the main issue was a lack of sources calling it the “uyghur genocide”.
mainly the discussion was kicked off because it revealed wikipedia’s western bias:
Uyghur genocide → Uyghur genocide accusation – In line with Palestinian genocide accusation and doesn’t imply it’s a settled fact like the current title does, but also still in line with the WP:COMMONNAME arguments (which I don’t agree with, but this is a compromise) since it includes the supposed common name. The discrepancy between the current titles of this page and Palestinian genocide accusation implies a hypocrisy on the part of Wikipedia.
So clearly they’re arguing about whether it’s a “settled fact” or not. The discussion there is about a lack of scholarly articles calling it “genocide” and I don’t see anyone arguing it on the basis of it not meeting any sort of legal criteria.
Also you can stop posting the same material over and over again, I promise you I have seen at least the source material, back when I made my deep dive and found it lacking. If there’s anything new on this issue within the last 3 years please do let me know. Otherwise it seems like everybody dropped it as the so-called “human rights violations” peetered out due to lack of us-backed salafi terrorism.
I said it was settled fact. That is not up for debate with me, but you are of course welcome to continue to deny the genocide like you have been.
I am not just posting for you, I am very aware you don’t consider any sources I use valid. This is a common tactic of tankies. No surprise there.
You are of course wrong, but that is okay. You are primarily driven by ideology rather than logic. This allows you to discredit everything that disagrees with your view as western propaganda which really isn’t wrong as everything is technically propaganda. The devil is in sussing out what is true and what is not by understanding the intent and circumstances.
I don’t believe China is slaughtering Uyghur, although they have definitely killed more than just what normal police action would cause. What they are doing is a slow burn genocide similar to what the US has been doing for years. A polite genocide if you will.
I don’t really have a dog in this fight because I am not pro China or pro USA. I have been involved with Amnesty International and I have assisted in getting political prisoners released from both countries. I truly view both nations as utterly corrupt partners in making billionaires richer. Why any self respecting leftist would carry water for them is beyond me.
I’m not gonna go do a deepdive again. It is such a chore to even find falsifiable claims buried in the footnotes why are they not front and center? I made such a deep dive back in 2023 found it lacking. If there is new material from then please do share it. At the moment it just looks like there is no more genocide, if there ever was one.
I am not just posting for you, I am very aware you don’t consider any sources I use valid. This is a common tactic of tankies. No surprise there.
Well the first link leans on Zenz so I’m just gonna throw it out based on what I already know about him and his “reports”. The second one links the CIA directly so I’m not gonna bother with it either. Granted it’s not material to the article but it shows who is ultimately behind this article and it’s the biggest human rights violator on the planet. The third[1] I actually then looked at, now this really is the first thread I pulled and since I actually have to study (and type this comment twice because I accidently deleted the entirety of it) the only thread. Looking at the ToC there is section about “Destruction of Uyghur religious and cultural property” which seems like a good place to start looking for falsifiable claims. It alleges “razing of mosques” citing a Uyghur Human Rights Project report[2] so lets go there. The first mosque in the “Demolished mosques” section talks about the Keriya Id Kah Mosque. There is a thing about it’s gatehouse getting demolished:
Pictures of the mosque gatehouse appear as recently as March 2018. The demolition of the
gatehouse appears to have taken place on the 19th or 20th of the month, according to analysis
from Bellingcat. The prayer hall remains standing.
but earlier it was said that
In 1997 towards the north gate of the mosque a three story 227 square meter gatehouse was built in the style from the times of Sultan Satuq Bughra Khan using 80,000 RMB from the Xinjiang Ministry of Cultural and Religious Affairs along with 500,000 RMB collected from the people of Keriya.
so it’s really not ancient history that got demolished here. I don’t exactly know why, but there are plenty of reasons for demolishing such a structure. Later there is this quote saying
The Imams and the preachers of the mosque faced the same fate as the mosque.
so they are alleging the mosque got razed after all?? It’s just bonkers how hard it is to pin down an actual claim here. The mosque certainly seems to still be standing as a quick google to the coordinates shown in the picture will tell you. What’s more is that these areas can be travelled by tourists, got travelled. Of course the citations of that “report” link to the CIA as well, so I don’t know why I bothered. Why is there no organic resistance or reporting going on? Why does it all keep tying into the CIA?? What’s more, I spent an hour looking at the wrong mosque, I confused the one in kashgar with the on in keriya. Because the information is completely scattered all over, self-contradictory and I have no clue whether at any given point the piece I’m reading is alleging all-out genocide, cultural genocide, human rights abuses or what.
Did you ever bother to verify what these sources are talking about? Because this was the common theme back when I looked into it, it somehow always looped back to the CIA.
You are of course wrong, but that is okay. You are primarily driven by ideology rather than logic.
See these smug self-satisfied zingers is the reason why I don’t believe you care about the people of xinjiang one iota. It’s just about feeling superior to the tankies and non-westerners. You’re also wrong about me being “driven by ideology” as the breaking down xinjiang reporting is what got me into marxism and on the “tankie” side of things, not the other way around. I can’t explain just how uncomfortable it was to break with all the instutions and media that gave a feeling of safety. That sinking feeling the more I looked into exactly the kind of sources you posted. I previously thought that I got a clear view of the goings on in the world by consuming western media and having to break with all of it (really all of it, “Der Spiegel”, BBC, whatever yank news outlets I read before, they all were repeating it in lockstep) had me reeling. That feeling of having your worldview turned upside up is freeing but deeply uncomfortable. Of course whatever doubts I still had were put to rest with the reporting on the gaza genocide after Operation Al-Aqsa flood and the past years really solidified just how much of a puppet theatre it all is.
The devil is in sussing out what is true and what is not by understanding the intent and circumstances.
it really is, but I have a feeling you actually didn’t look at the material that closely.
I truly view both nations as utterly corrupt partners in making billionaires richer.
Since hitting a peak of 1,185 in 2021, Hurun said the number of dollar billionaires had been reduced to 753, with the 36 per cent decline exceeding a 10 per cent fall in the renminbi’s value against the dollar over the same period.[3]
Deep dives aside you have done nothing to discredit any sources I provided besides vague assurance you know it is all fake. Like you have uncovered a giant conspiracy instead of the more mundane reality of human rights violations which is typical in every country on the planet.
Your kill the messenger approach is just pathetic. Here is the thing, the messenger can be untrustworthy but still tell the truth. This also ties into a bigger picture of hypocrisy. Simply put a hypocrite isn’t necessarily wrong just because they don’t practice what they preach. This is an advance concept you are probably not ready for.
You spend so much time on single mosque story it is kind of mind-boggling. China is known for shutting down and altering a larger number of mosques. This isn’t up for debate and honestly you are coming off as someone who is delusional to ignore this fact.
CIA you say, once again it is far more mundane. Most of the evidence coming out of China is gathered by human rights organizations. I find it funny you think the CIA is running around planting all this evidence to make China look bad. Not that the CIA couldn’t do it, but they really are busy running around murdering people and securing more wealth for the oligarchy.
I keep giving you zingers because you deserve them. You act like a desperate campist trying to find evidence to support your conspirator views. Not that conspiracies aren’t a thing, they definitely are. It is just you haven’t found one in this particular area. This is an issue I find myself falling into because of the vast conspiracies I am aware of. Everything begins to look like a conspiracy even when it isn’t.
I am not wrong about you being driven by ideology. I find it amazing you would deny this while being clearly driven by an ideology. You even admit your indoctrination into your cult of like minded genocide deniers. Why a leftist would look up to China or Russia is beyond me and shows a complete lack of discernment. My respect level instantly drops when I realize someone is a simp.
There is this whole world of propaganda you ignore and that is eastern propaganda. China regularly lies and Russia quite literally never tells the truth. You think the whole world is one sided, but that is because you are not exposed to constant propaganda from the other side. You are not wrong though about the theater. There is definitely a show western propaganda has put on and a lot of it is demonstratebly wrong.
Back to your denial of being driven by ideology. The first part of recognizing bias is looking at yourself. You have indicated your bias to me multiple times now. Here is how bad it is. You went looking for evidence China has its billionaires under control and you found some state propaganda from several years ago that supports your position. Here is the problem, China has produced the most billionaires for the third year in a row.
I can see you have a long journey ahead deprogramming yourself if you care to. Perhaps you will be happy lapping up eastern propaganda as you used to lap up western. To each his own.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China
Literally lists all the examples of genocide in the Wikipedia.
So dumb it hurts.
I’m talking about that very page being renamed from “uyghur genocide” to “persecution of uyghurs in china”
Protip: if you think that someones “so dumb it hurts” you’re likely misunderstanding something or missing info. Some humility goes a long way.
see the “frequently asked questions” on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3APersecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China
Protip: if you are going to deny a genocide try harder
Shouldn’t you be discussing this on wikipedia?Apparently their editors don’t think that there is enough credible evidence of a genocide as well, hence the name change.
Why!? We already know it is a genocide.
The name changed because it doesn’t meet the statutory definition of the law. This has zero to do with it being a genocide outside of one narrow definition. This is the same logic that Maga uses to deny Trump is a rapist
People also argue if what is happening in Palestine is a genocide. There are many people who don’t believe what happened to the Native Americans is an ongoing genocide or what the US has done by locking up and destroying minority families (also a genocide). Just because they aren’t actively slaughtering them doesn’t suddenly make it not a genocide.
https://www.genocidewatch.com/what-is-genocide
Shouldn’t you go somewhere else to deny this genocide, since that is your part? A genocide denier through and through.
not the impression what I got. See the discussion about it here, it seems the main issue was a lack of sources calling it the “uyghur genocide”.
mainly the discussion was kicked off because it revealed wikipedia’s western bias:
So clearly they’re arguing about whether it’s a “settled fact” or not. The discussion there is about a lack of scholarly articles calling it “genocide” and I don’t see anyone arguing it on the basis of it not meeting any sort of legal criteria.
Also you can stop posting the same material over and over again, I promise you I have seen at least the source material, back when I made my deep dive and found it lacking. If there’s anything new on this issue within the last 3 years please do let me know. Otherwise it seems like everybody dropped it as the so-called “human rights violations” peetered out due to lack of us-backed salafi terrorism.
Thanks for deep diving into the reason why. Although there are many scholarly articles calling it a genocide
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01419870.2021.2001556#abstract
https://www.humanrightsresearch.org/post/persecution-of-uyghurs-in-xinjiang-torture-crimes-against-humanity-and-genocide
https://www.ushmm.org/m/pdfs/November_2021_Uyghur_Report.pdf
https://www.mdpi.com/2075-471X/9/1/1
https://newlinesinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/Chinas-Breaches-of-the-GC3.pdf
https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1834&context=gsp
I said it was settled fact. That is not up for debate with me, but you are of course welcome to continue to deny the genocide like you have been.
I am not just posting for you, I am very aware you don’t consider any sources I use valid. This is a common tactic of tankies. No surprise there.
You are of course wrong, but that is okay. You are primarily driven by ideology rather than logic. This allows you to discredit everything that disagrees with your view as western propaganda which really isn’t wrong as everything is technically propaganda. The devil is in sussing out what is true and what is not by understanding the intent and circumstances.
I don’t believe China is slaughtering Uyghur, although they have definitely killed more than just what normal police action would cause. What they are doing is a slow burn genocide similar to what the US has been doing for years. A polite genocide if you will.
I don’t really have a dog in this fight because I am not pro China or pro USA. I have been involved with Amnesty International and I have assisted in getting political prisoners released from both countries. I truly view both nations as utterly corrupt partners in making billionaires richer. Why any self respecting leftist would carry water for them is beyond me.
I’m not gonna go do a deepdive again. It is such a chore to even find falsifiable claims buried in the footnotes why are they not front and center? I made such a deep dive back in 2023 found it lacking. If there is new material from then please do share it. At the moment it just looks like there is no more genocide, if there ever was one.
Well the first link leans on Zenz so I’m just gonna throw it out based on what I already know about him and his “reports”. The second one links the CIA directly so I’m not gonna bother with it either. Granted it’s not material to the article but it shows who is ultimately behind this article and it’s the biggest human rights violator on the planet. The third[1] I actually then looked at, now this really is the first thread I pulled and since I actually have to study (and type this comment twice because I accidently deleted the entirety of it) the only thread. Looking at the ToC there is section about “Destruction of Uyghur religious and cultural property” which seems like a good place to start looking for falsifiable claims. It alleges “razing of mosques” citing a Uyghur Human Rights Project report[2] so lets go there. The first mosque in the “Demolished mosques” section talks about the Keriya Id Kah Mosque. There is a thing about it’s gatehouse getting demolished:
but earlier it was said that
so it’s really not ancient history that got demolished here. I don’t exactly know why, but there are plenty of reasons for demolishing such a structure. Later there is this quote saying
so they are alleging the mosque got razed after all?? It’s just bonkers how hard it is to pin down an actual claim here. The mosque certainly seems to still be standing as a quick google to the coordinates shown in the picture will tell you. What’s more is that these areas can be travelled by tourists, got travelled. Of course the citations of that “report” link to the CIA as well, so I don’t know why I bothered. Why is there no organic resistance or reporting going on? Why does it all keep tying into the CIA?? What’s more, I spent an hour looking at the wrong mosque, I confused the one in kashgar with the on in keriya. Because the information is completely scattered all over, self-contradictory and I have no clue whether at any given point the piece I’m reading is alleging all-out genocide, cultural genocide, human rights abuses or what.
Did you ever bother to verify what these sources are talking about? Because this was the common theme back when I looked into it, it somehow always looped back to the CIA.
See these smug self-satisfied zingers is the reason why I don’t believe you care about the people of xinjiang one iota. It’s just about feeling superior to the tankies and non-westerners. You’re also wrong about me being “driven by ideology” as the breaking down xinjiang reporting is what got me into marxism and on the “tankie” side of things, not the other way around. I can’t explain just how uncomfortable it was to break with all the instutions and media that gave a feeling of safety. That sinking feeling the more I looked into exactly the kind of sources you posted. I previously thought that I got a clear view of the goings on in the world by consuming western media and having to break with all of it (really all of it, “Der Spiegel”, BBC, whatever yank news outlets I read before, they all were repeating it in lockstep) had me reeling. That feeling of having your worldview turned upside up is freeing but deeply uncomfortable. Of course whatever doubts I still had were put to rest with the reporting on the gaza genocide after Operation Al-Aqsa flood and the past years really solidified just how much of a puppet theatre it all is.
it really is, but I have a feeling you actually didn’t look at the material that closely.
well good news on that front, China is cleaning up with it’s billionaires https://hexbear.net/post/2802029
https://www.ushmm.org/m/pdfs/November_2021_Uyghur_Report.pdf ↩︎
https://docs.uhrp.org/pdf/UHRP_report_Demolishing_Faith.pdf ↩︎
https://archive.is/gNdbC#selection-2157.0-2157.231 ↩︎
oh wouldn’t you look at that the UHPR is a NED project[1]. Because of course it is. What a colossal waste of my time.
https://www.ned.org/uyghur-human-rights-policy-act-builds-on-work-of-ned-grantees/ ↩︎
Deep dives aside you have done nothing to discredit any sources I provided besides vague assurance you know it is all fake. Like you have uncovered a giant conspiracy instead of the more mundane reality of human rights violations which is typical in every country on the planet.
Your kill the messenger approach is just pathetic. Here is the thing, the messenger can be untrustworthy but still tell the truth. This also ties into a bigger picture of hypocrisy. Simply put a hypocrite isn’t necessarily wrong just because they don’t practice what they preach. This is an advance concept you are probably not ready for.
You spend so much time on single mosque story it is kind of mind-boggling. China is known for shutting down and altering a larger number of mosques. This isn’t up for debate and honestly you are coming off as someone who is delusional to ignore this fact.
https://ig.ft.com/china-mosques/
CIA you say, once again it is far more mundane. Most of the evidence coming out of China is gathered by human rights organizations. I find it funny you think the CIA is running around planting all this evidence to make China look bad. Not that the CIA couldn’t do it, but they really are busy running around murdering people and securing more wealth for the oligarchy.
I keep giving you zingers because you deserve them. You act like a desperate campist trying to find evidence to support your conspirator views. Not that conspiracies aren’t a thing, they definitely are. It is just you haven’t found one in this particular area. This is an issue I find myself falling into because of the vast conspiracies I am aware of. Everything begins to look like a conspiracy even when it isn’t.
I am not wrong about you being driven by ideology. I find it amazing you would deny this while being clearly driven by an ideology. You even admit your indoctrination into your cult of like minded genocide deniers. Why a leftist would look up to China or Russia is beyond me and shows a complete lack of discernment. My respect level instantly drops when I realize someone is a simp.
There is this whole world of propaganda you ignore and that is eastern propaganda. China regularly lies and Russia quite literally never tells the truth. You think the whole world is one sided, but that is because you are not exposed to constant propaganda from the other side. You are not wrong though about the theater. There is definitely a show western propaganda has put on and a lot of it is demonstratebly wrong.
Back to your denial of being driven by ideology. The first part of recognizing bias is looking at yourself. You have indicated your bias to me multiple times now. Here is how bad it is. You went looking for evidence China has its billionaires under control and you found some state propaganda from several years ago that supports your position. Here is the problem, China has produced the most billionaires for the third year in a row.
I can see you have a long journey ahead deprogramming yourself if you care to. Perhaps you will be happy lapping up eastern propaganda as you used to lap up western. To each his own.