Chanting ‘from the river to the sea’ would be criminalised under proposed state law
And let me guess, the proposed law does not criminalize anyone saying “Between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty” (Likud’77) or denying Palestinians the right to self-determination (there is no such thing as a state’s right to exist under international law, contrary to the very real right to self-determination, enshrined in the UN Charter, that Germany is a signatory to).
These jewish-supremacist idiots are fuelling anti-Semitism, while propping up a genocidal apartheid regime.
Based on that time 3200+ years ago when they stole it.
Albert Einstein’s letter to the NY Times was 100% correct about Israel and Palestine. Is the German government going to trash his name too?
Israeli people have as much right to exist as Palestinian people. So let’s not genocide the Palestinians, no matter how desperately Golda Meir claimed they’re not real. Israel has a right to exist =/= Israel has a right to slaughter a culture. It’s not fucking hard you cunts
they do if they hadnt forcibly removed palestinians from the area since ww2.
Israel has a right to exist =/= Israel has a right to slaughter a culture.
That’s the thing; under the UN charter, peoples have a right to exist, not states. Basically, what becomes of the region should be decided by the entire population living in it, but it seems like half of said population isn’t getting much of a voice.
Does human have right to exist? If yes, then those who identify themselves as Israeli and those who identify themselves as Palestinians have the right to exist.
However, including Israel as a state and government in this statement doesn’t make sense.
Its like someone going to another person house and take over a room then say I have the right to exist. Yes you have the right to exist but not the right to steal, and control the house. Now this state literally committing an ongoing genocide. So yes they state doesn’t have the right to exist.
Israel is not israeli people, the former of which has no right to exist, the latter of which exists as a temporary and exceedingly new political fiction.
To me, the real tragedy is that a shared identity really could be forged between these two groups. In another world, I can imagine a beautiful fusion between the Israelis and Palestinians, like two trees growing around one another.
So much of the conflict in the West is viewed from a Biblical lens. Israel represents the return of the Jews to their ancestral homeland! But really what present-day Israel represents is the spiritual descendants of the Biblical Israel ruling over and occupying the genetic descendants of the Biblical Israel.
Through this thread, a common identity could be forged. That kind of shared identity is the kind of thing that national identities could be forged from. Instead of “Israel” being defined as “the Jewish homeland.” “Israel” could be defined as “the home of the genetic and spiritual descendants of ancient Israel.” This conflict need not always be “the Jews vs the Palestinians.” It could simply be one type of Israeli and another type of Israeli. Some claim that name by blood. Some claim that name by religion. But both are united in one nation.
To me, the real tragedy is that a shared identity really could be forged between these two groups. In another world, I can imagine a beautiful fusion between the Israelis and Palestinians, like two trees growing around one another.
That existed before 1929.
Quite frankly, they don’t.
They were invited refuge, turned violent and annexed the region, and have continued to be violent bloodthirsty pigs ever since.
They were invited refuge
The League of Nations had designated Palestine as a future homeland for the Jewish people. Only a minority of local Arabs welcomed those that came.
Palestinian Arabs started the violent Arab Revolt in 1939 in order to stop Jewish refugees from immigrating. The British accommodated them by severely restricting the number of Jews they allowed into the country. They took it seriously. Thousands of Jewish refugees were held by the British in camps on Cyprus during the 1940s.
It is really hard if you’re only able to see the world in binary choices, which seems to be a common root of issues around the world
This is basically the downfall of America.
As a non-American it doesn’t appear as a loss really…
I just hope they don’t import their culture war BS here any further.
Unabated social media will take down other countries too
Israel doesn’t have a right to exist though, it’s explicitly from the outset a genocidal colony in stolen land
German government seems to be as shamelessly bribed and corrupt as Americas.
When it comes to Israel, sort of.
Germany is making extreme over-corrections for their past. Everything related to the two world wars and the role they played in it is subject to censorship and oversight, to a degree that’s almost comical if it weren’t real.
ONE MILLION Roma were murdered by the NAZIs during the Holocaust, alongside 3 million Jews.
Notice how German politicians don’t “unwaveringly support” the Roma. In fact, they don’t even talk about them.
The “change” in Germany after NAZIsm wasn’t the end of the idea that ethnicity defines how somebody should be treated or that some ethnicities are “good” and others are “bad”, it was merelly moving the Jewish People from the “bad” ethnicity to the “good” ethnicity column.
A consistent and non-racist “correction” for Germany’s past would see all of the actual victims of NAZIsm and their descendants being compensated for it, be they Roma, Jews, Handicaped, Homosexuals, Communists or from any other group, and ONLY the victims, not this Racist bullshit of claiming that all individuals of an entire and very specific ethnicity are all deserving of support even though the vast majority of them are in no way form or shape related to the victims of the NAZIs except for being born in the same ethnicity, whilst not doing it for those from other equally targetted groups (something I emphasize because it really shows how even the supposed “making of amends” is done in a Racist way).
This shit we see in Germany is not a genuine change from the way of thinking of the past, it’s just in the face of defeat doing the minimum required adjustment to the defeated political ideology to please the victors, which was moving a specific ethnicity which is influential in the main winner country of the war from untermenschen to ubermenschen, without doing it for any other targetted ethnicity, much less actually reforming the way of thinking about and acting towards people as “ethnics” that underpinned NAZIsm or even, as we see in this law, refuse to use force to silence dissenting opinions.
The “change” in Germany is mainly changing the façade, not at all the foundations - i.e. image management, not reform - hence how right now the open racism of “unwaveringly supporting” a genocidal nation with no other reason than the dominant ethnicity there and the choice of using force against those who disagree such as this law are right alongside:
Everything related to the two world wars and the role they played in it is subject to censorship and oversight, to a degree that’s almost comical if it weren’t real.
I’m agreeing with you entirely, but I would be remiss if I didn’t point out that 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust - 3 million in the camps, and the remainder in the Holocaust-by-bullets or in mobile gas chamber vans or some other means.
Also, fun fact about West Germany, they made all the gay concentration camp inmates serve out the rest of their sentences (though I believe at regular prisons) since being gay was still illegal. The DDR did not do this. West Germany also had a program to place foster children with pedophiles since they figured they’d love them. I shit you not.
You gotta be careful with these levels of truth
It’s not particularly complex. Israel spends hundreds of millions a year on hasbara. In fact they upped the budget by more than 4x this year. Any German politician saying anything against Israel would be seen as Hitler 2.0 by a lot of people, because Israel == Jews and disagreeing with Israel == wanting to genocide Jews if it comes from a German politician in particular.
In 2008, Merkel actually said Israel’s security is Germany’s reason for existence. Merz, an Israel supporter himself, said in October that Germany can’t support another government “unconditionally” because the first priority of a government should be the people that live in the country itself.
Overall, support for Israel is down in Germany (among real people, not politicians), but there’s still a bunch of international propaganda by Israel making Israel out to be victims of literally everything and associating all Jewish people with Israel despite the fact that internationally, many disagree with zionism.
It’ll take long for things to change significantly, but change is underway.
Good.
That said my point still stands that the “support” for the Jewish People in Germany was never a visible element of a move away from the way of thinking which was the foundation of NAZIsm, it was only a façade whilst the Racism remained unabatted and the authoritarian tendencies were only mildly suppressed, as demonstrated by the totally different treatment extended to other victims of the Holocaust such as the Roma People, by the continuation of Race-centric treatment of people when supposedly moving away from the NAZI years into the “making of amends” to the victims (rather than a race-agnostic victim-centric view) and by the repeated use of Force in Germany to suppress political dissent such as llustrated by this law (and the countless videos of the politzei’s treatment of anti-Genocide demonstrators).
At least at the level of the political elites Germany is not a modern liberal nation, it’s a Racist nation with a very limited and mainly performative bit of “liberalism” (in such a fertile field of Race-centric and Authoritarian thinking, no wonder the growth of the AfD)
Germany (and the rest of the West, but Germany is significantly worse than most, IMHO) needs to move away from from the Normalized Racism of using people’s ethnicity as a determinant of their worth and deserved treatment and towards Humanist views, as well as away from creeping Authoritarianism like this.
It was and is so easy for the Zionists in Israel to manipulate Germany exactly because the latter country doesn’t really follow Humanist values (it just puts on a show of being a “modern” “liberal” country) hence the reaction to the Zionist Genocide was not the Humanist reaction (your actions define your worth and thus our support, and those who mass murder civilians don’t get our support), it was the extreme Racist reaction (the Kanzelier proclaiming “we unwaveringly support the Jewish Nation” at a point when the list of murdered babies 1 year old or younger in Gaza was already 17 pages long) and the Racism and Authoritarianism have carried on since, hence the continued forcefull suppression of anti-Genocide views, including this law.
And this shit wasn’t just the CDU and SDP, even the Greens had a Race-centric take rather than a Humanist one, holding a position which can only be derived from the belief that Race is more important than even Human Life.
All this to say that the change that has to happen for Germany to enter the XXI century is a lot deeper and fundamental than the miniscule step of stopping the “unwavering support for Jewish Nation”.
I was kinda for it, but with the dangerous rise in quasi-nazi party AfD, I wonder what’s the point of banning a nazi flag… and it’s even more ridiculous that foreign ethno religious supremacists enjoy that level of protection.
The over correcting logic doesn’t hold much.
From a business point of view when dealing with Israel, it doesn’t take much to figure out they are blocking or limiting Palestinians business.
From a military point of view, it doesn’t take much to realize how genocidal most of these technologies are.
With the US, we can attribute the support to many things, political reasons, capitalism, religious with Christian Zionists, and even blunt blackmailing. However, with Germany all these doesn’t work as well.
Personally, I think German rather have Zionist there than being in Europe. Which is the ultimate solution. If Israel fail, most of these people will go back where they came from ( Poland, Russia, Germany, France, England) or immigrate to NA or SA which would be another problem no one want to deal with.
Germany sees support for Israel‘s existence as preventing another Holocaust of the Jewish people.
In the 1950s Israel‘s economy was in shambles. So they accepted money from Germany to build their country, much of it went into buying heavy machinery from Germany.
Over time Germany and Israel cooperated militarily more. The Bundeswehr used the Uzi submachine gun for example and the Israeli Merkava tank uses German technology.
Germany also sold submarines to Israel, which are capable of launching nuclear missiles. Some of the submarines were paid for by Germany. The capability for a nuclear second strike via submarines is regarded as insurance for Israel‘s existence.
German involvement with Israel/Palestine goes back a long time. German Jews were important in the Zionist movement and founding of Israel. On the other hand the Palestinian leader Al-Husseini lived in Germany during WW2 and worked for the Nazis.
During the Cold War East Germany was among the first countries to support the PLO. West German leftist terrorists like RAF (Baader-Meinhof) cooperated with Palestinian militants and conducted several high profile operations together (e.g. Entebbe).
The Palestinian terrorist attack on the Israeli Olympic team 1972 in Munich was a major embarrassment for the German government.
business
Israel is a highly developed country. Palestine has a small economy compared to Israel. A big part of Palestinian trade goes through Israel anyway. Germany doesn’t sanction trade with Palestine in any way. As a matter of fact Germany has long supported a Palestinian state as part of a two state solution and is one of the major sources of funding for the Palestinian Authority and development projects in Palestine.
back where they came from
More than half of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi, who were expelled from Muslim and Arab countries. They can’t go back. Besides that most Israelis were born in the country.
Maybe part of it but Maxwell and Epstein also operated in Europe. Germany has billionaires and easily compromised politicians.
They operated “in Europe” the same way Apple or Google does. They’re still subject to EU law, and while not infallible, Europe has shown it doesn’t just pave the way for oligarchy the same way the US does.
How much do you know about the Rothschilds and France?
Yes a slightly harder target but those UK arrests were because they sold UK secrets and got publicly caught. Very little has been done. The couple emailing about hunting humans, they’re Rothschilds.
Israel is still in Eurovision dude. You’re in a better position than Americans but don’t get complacent and start believing Israel and Russia weren’t actively competing for kompromat in your neck of the woods.
I know that the Rothschilds are a popular talking point for conspiracy nuts, and whenever I hear the name brought up I must prepare myself for some serious eye rolling exercises.
Yeah. That’s what everyone I’ve told this to has said. Next is the part where you google it and read a few very short e-mails several times trying to find some other meaning than what it sounds like.
Also Epstein seems to have regularly been introducing himself as the Rothschild’s money guy.
Dude, I’ve been exposed to this bullshit my entire life. You are not going to miraculously change anything by being umpteenth person to tell me to look up shit or “do my own research”.
It’s just tiresome and pathetic.
Tattorack, thats a theory that night be true-- do you have any data that backs it up?
That’s not so much a theory as it’s just observing what Germany is doing.
They have strict rules on portrayals of Nazis and Nazi symbols that lead them to censor movies, games, comics, and other media. Examples of this include Indiana Jones or Wolfenstein.
The education system is very strict and specific about what it can talk about concerning the world wars and Germany. If you want detailed explanations, I have a few German friends I could ask directly.
I could also ask them to explain how often Germany paid Israel for WWII reperations and how WWII shaped all rhetoric involving Jews.
Two wrongs don’t make one right, my fellow Germans!
Germany is going too far…
Too far right.
Too far right Yes, I’m sure the AFD will support this law.
There’s a weird thing with Europe where the far-right is less supportive of the fascist world empire (since they’re sovereigntists, while the fasicst world empire is supranational), while the center right and center left are all-in.
A liberal democracy, apparently
People who are now Israelis have a right to exist, just like everybody else.
The nation of Israel has no right to exist, same as all other nations.
Funny how racialized politics, autoritarianist tendencies and even a certain view of nation states as more important than people, did not stop when NAZI Germany was defeated and are still very much alive and acted on in Germany - the symbols such as swasticas and goose-stepping aren’t displayed anymore but the fundational aspects of the NAZI view of the world, of the value of people and of the validity of the use of force to suppress ideas the powerful dislike, are still alive and well in Germany.
The nation of Israel has no right to exist, same as all other nations.
I don’t know about this as a blanket declaration. I’m no moral philosopher, but if I can imagine Trump saying this in a speech announcing the annexation of Canada, then there’s probably something morally wrong with.
People have rights.
Social constructs have no rights.
What you’re missing in your interpretation of your own example is the consideration that the right to exist, to be free and to chose how they rule of the people currently in the territory of Canada is what would be under threat by Trump, not some imaginary “right” of Canada. Canada should not exist due to any inherent “right” of nation states, it should exist if and only it helps uphold the rights of people.
The social construct called Israel in overall does not uphold the rights of people: sure it does support some rights for some specific people, but it suppresses rights for far more people than it supports, especially the most important one of all - the right to life. The social construct called Israel as it is now should not exist because it oppresses more people than it supports and it’s the people who have rights.
People have a right to self determination and that includes nations.
Not really. There’s no place in my country or anywhere else on earth I can go with like-minded people to form a new nation.
That’s why Israel was created under European imperialist occupation. Is that self-determination?
You Europeans give Americans so much shit; This shit would NEVER happen in the US. We can say whatever the hell we want.
Rings a bit hollow when Europeans are being denied entry because we don’t like Trump and the president is trying to shut down independent media.
…we tend not to care about people who aren’t United States citizens.
Or US citizens who aren’t a certain color, or gender, for that matter.
Despite on what you might read on Lemmy, most Americans aren’t overtly racist. Alot of people want to reduce immigration, but that is because 80-90% of our total population growth is the result of immigration.
… it’s not just about the impact it will have on our culture. As automation continues to take low income jobs, we will have a large surplus of unemployed lower class workers. There is a correlation between our low population density and our high standard of living.
The US considers that no foreigner is entitled to passage in the country unless the government wills it. They’ve been milking this concept pretty much recently. But a US citizen can have as many memes they want on politicians and are allowed to enter and leave freely.
Yeah I give you that, our border laws are insane
Not only that, as an American citizen I can go to prison for existing in public. The immigration officers are a secret police that could detain me on the spot for my gender expression not matching my government ID, and my skin is the right shade of brown to receive their racial profiling.
I’m the type of American citizen who is on the front line for this shit, but when there is no one left to speak up for you, you’ll be next. They will take your right to vote by rigging elections and making the legislature irrelevant. They will throw you in jail for being a terrorist if you oppose fascism. They have shown open disregard for the Constitution at every juncture, and if you become a problem person, don’t expect it to save you.
This is not a distant problem, it is knocking at your door. You can’t claim America is “free” anymore. That era is over.
“So far, no federal law has been adopted.”
The law talked about in the article has also not passed. It is a proposal.
You Europeans give Americans so much shit;
If you don’t like that, then stop being complete embarrassments
We can say whatever the hell we want.
Do you? Maybe your government won’t publically make you STFU, but plenty of Americans have died under suspicious circumstances. And if not the government there are plenty of NGOs (Non-Governmental Organization) that’ll fuck up your life, if they can.
You can say whatever you want, but have to live in fear, that some government thugs in unmarked vans snatch you from the street and let you vanish in detention camps. Idk.
But, true enough, this proposed law discussed here is going too far. Fingers crossed that it does not pass (and it likely won’t).
Are they going to make the cells out of Irony?
Hier geht keiner in den knast für sowas, sind ja keine dummen amis, die ihre bevölkerung wegsperren
I wonder if they’ve the gall to jail somebody for wearing a t-shirt which reads:
Palestine & Israel have EQUAL right to exist.
?
_ /\ _
Fuck the speech police
Israel: a country so weak and pathetic it controls peoples speech.
The tought police will get you next
What’s considered hate speech or incitement changes constantly.
Yes, well it’s contextual
However no nation should be above or afraid of criticism. The reason Israel is is because it’s actions are indefensible. It has no choice to shut down speech.
