Jon Stewart torched the DNC and Democratic leadership as "lost" after learning from a candidate with a massive lead that he's heard zilch from the party.
Folks like you being unrealistic about what we can all see happening is a huge part of their enablement.
“Gosh, golly, we blew it again, so sorry everyone! Being the good guys, we have a harder challenge, we have to fight for change the right way. Sometimes we lose by sticking to our principles 😞”
Yeah fucking right. Of course they’d prefer themselves be the current half dominating the other, but not so they can make any kind of sweeping changes. Just because it’s cushier on top. And yes, the DNC is where the folks who sincerely do want to fix things end up. And just look how they’re prevented from ever getting anything done. They get co-opted and sidelined, another major function of the party. Absorb the true believers and thereby dull and mute their influence.
The moment Dems have actual control and power - even for a moment - as soon as it’s theirs they roll over. Recent shutdown capitulation was a perfect example, but it’s just over and over and over. I’m not claiming every rank and file Democrat politician is “in on it”, I’m claiming it doesn’t matter, if the party structure and behavior is obviously corrupt and strictly self-serving as the commenter you’re replying to laid out.
It’s rich people against us, Dem leadership is against us. Please stop being so naive. Your naivete is a literal weapon they wield to abuse us all.
Hard disagree on your last paragraph. Cynicism serves them far better than starry eyed optimism.
Naive optimists have something to lose. Cynics don’t register on political calculus.
If you believe the US is a uniparty, that’s fine by them. Whether you are correct or not doesn’t matter. You don’t matter. You weren’t voting or donating or volunteering anyway.
I’m definitely not encouraging apathy, far from it. People need to know what they’re fighting though. I don’t get the sense that we’ll agree very much on what should be done, but that’s okay, I don’t feel the need to bicker about it.
Sidenote, I think you mean “pessimist” instead of “cynic”. Cynical people believe everyone is purely driven by self-interest regardless of other virtues or values. Cynical people believe the rest of us are lying when we say we do things for principles and ideals vs. just self-interest. Not the same as feeling pessimistic about things, though used interchangeably all the time. Politicians do tend to be extremely cynical, whether optimistic or pessimistic.
I very much want to see things done by optimists as well, as long as we mean something like “imagining a better society that doesn’t excuse or hide atrocities, no matter where or against whom” and things like that when we say optimism.
I’m less interested if we mean something closer to “well this is what we have today and really those DNC folks aren’t that bad, probably, so attacking them is actually counterproductive” - that doesn’t sound like optimism to me. That sounds like defeat, some flavor of outright self-deception, or uneasy don’t-look-right-at-it complicity, or collaboration.
But to be clear by this point I imagine we feel more similarly than differently, I’m really just staking out my own distinctions here, not saying “and that’s why everyone should say I’m right and very smart”. Lol.
I don’t believe I disagreed with the assertion that the DNC leadership wants to make sweeping changes. I said that they are NOT some type of controlled opposition. If they were, they wouldn’t be fucking up as hard as they do at every aspect you stated. They are a combination of inefficient, out-of-touch, greedy, and… Lazy, but like they want everyone to like them which makes them inauthentic?
I think it’s unrealistic to think the DNC is smart enough to undermine everything but somehow not smart enough to just… Lie better? You know? Why bother being so fucking pathetic when it is easier, cheaper, and faster to just lie? Why make an autopsy on why you lost the election and burying it because of your Israeli money ties if you were a genius and could just make a fake report that blames progressive policies real fucking easily.
Like, sure, call them sociopaths and everything because the DNC is having to defend legitimately bad positions in spite of its supporters opposition because money, but don’t pretend that is out of some masterminded technique. They are not that smart.
My assertion is the DNC leadership does not want to make sweeping changes, wants to avoid them at all costs, but nonetheless position themselves as the party of ChangeTM, thus necessitating all the lip service to ideals like justice and fairness, while constantly stacking the deck against citizens.
I don’t know where you’re getting the idea that I think they are mastermind geniuses, I think they are pretty garden-variety “pretend to look busy/effective while working for my actual interests” type liars, you can see that kind of behavior in any large corporate environment, too, it’s ubiquitous. Gets more disingenuous, and common to the point of being mere table stakes, the higher one goes on those rungs too. Usually.
So I’m just not willing to call their failures incompetence. It’s not a unified monolith of course, but the Chuck Schumer’s of the world know EXACTLY what they’re doing. And they’re no dummies, even if I don’t think they’re some kind of magically-capable puppetmasters.
It’s as simple as their interests being much more similar to that of their peers (of either party), and to the donors for both parties, and miles away from our interests. I’m not claiming special abilities, just regular tier competence. You seem to be insisting instead that it’s incompetence with the right goals, and I don’t see the evidence for that. I DO see lots of PR.
They’re controlled in the sense that they represent class interests that are opposed to those of their nominal constituency. By paying some lip service to vaguely progressive policies, they capture roughly half of the voters in a system built to exclude any real working-class political representation.
What do you mean? They are accountable to their class collaborators. They benefit from all sorts of “campaign contributions”, corrupt dealings, lobbying and investments. For sure some of them have the additional guarantee of epstein-variety blackmail.
I’m not clear on what you mean here. The system is a kind of an embodiment of malice towards the poor. I’m not saying that all these politicians are consciously malicious, I’m saying that they don’t work for us.
Folks like you being unrealistic about what we can all see happening is a huge part of their enablement.
“Gosh, golly, we blew it again, so sorry everyone! Being the good guys, we have a harder challenge, we have to fight for change the right way. Sometimes we lose by sticking to our principles 😞”
Yeah fucking right. Of course they’d prefer themselves be the current half dominating the other, but not so they can make any kind of sweeping changes. Just because it’s cushier on top. And yes, the DNC is where the folks who sincerely do want to fix things end up. And just look how they’re prevented from ever getting anything done. They get co-opted and sidelined, another major function of the party. Absorb the true believers and thereby dull and mute their influence.
The moment Dems have actual control and power - even for a moment - as soon as it’s theirs they roll over. Recent shutdown capitulation was a perfect example, but it’s just over and over and over. I’m not claiming every rank and file Democrat politician is “in on it”, I’m claiming it doesn’t matter, if the party structure and behavior is obviously corrupt and strictly self-serving as the commenter you’re replying to laid out.
It’s rich people against us, Dem leadership is against us. Please stop being so naive. Your naivete is a literal weapon they wield to abuse us all.
Hard disagree on your last paragraph. Cynicism serves them far better than starry eyed optimism.
Naive optimists have something to lose. Cynics don’t register on political calculus.
If you believe the US is a uniparty, that’s fine by them. Whether you are correct or not doesn’t matter. You don’t matter. You weren’t voting or donating or volunteering anyway.
I’m definitely not encouraging apathy, far from it. People need to know what they’re fighting though. I don’t get the sense that we’ll agree very much on what should be done, but that’s okay, I don’t feel the need to bicker about it.
Sidenote, I think you mean “pessimist” instead of “cynic”. Cynical people believe everyone is purely driven by self-interest regardless of other virtues or values. Cynical people believe the rest of us are lying when we say we do things for principles and ideals vs. just self-interest. Not the same as feeling pessimistic about things, though used interchangeably all the time. Politicians do tend to be extremely cynical, whether optimistic or pessimistic.
No criticism to you, just pointing that out.
Fair, calling you a cynic is bad faith. I don’t think pessimism is unwarranted. We have a lot of reasons to be pessimistic.
I just think that when things happen, it’s usually optimists getting them done. We need the optimists.
I very much want to see things done by optimists as well, as long as we mean something like “imagining a better society that doesn’t excuse or hide atrocities, no matter where or against whom” and things like that when we say optimism.
I’m less interested if we mean something closer to “well this is what we have today and really those DNC folks aren’t that bad, probably, so attacking them is actually counterproductive” - that doesn’t sound like optimism to me. That sounds like defeat, some flavor of outright self-deception, or uneasy don’t-look-right-at-it complicity, or collaboration.
But to be clear by this point I imagine we feel more similarly than differently, I’m really just staking out my own distinctions here, not saying “and that’s why everyone should say I’m right and very smart”. Lol.
Cheers friend.
I think you are right that we mostly agree. Thank you for engaging.
I don’t believe I disagreed with the assertion that the DNC leadership wants to make sweeping changes. I said that they are NOT some type of controlled opposition. If they were, they wouldn’t be fucking up as hard as they do at every aspect you stated. They are a combination of inefficient, out-of-touch, greedy, and… Lazy, but like they want everyone to like them which makes them inauthentic?
I think it’s unrealistic to think the DNC is smart enough to undermine everything but somehow not smart enough to just… Lie better? You know? Why bother being so fucking pathetic when it is easier, cheaper, and faster to just lie? Why make an autopsy on why you lost the election and burying it because of your Israeli money ties if you were a genius and could just make a fake report that blames progressive policies real fucking easily.
Like, sure, call them sociopaths and everything because the DNC is having to defend legitimately bad positions in spite of its supporters opposition because money, but don’t pretend that is out of some masterminded technique. They are not that smart.
My assertion is the DNC leadership does not want to make sweeping changes, wants to avoid them at all costs, but nonetheless position themselves as the party of ChangeTM, thus necessitating all the lip service to ideals like justice and fairness, while constantly stacking the deck against citizens.
I don’t know where you’re getting the idea that I think they are mastermind geniuses, I think they are pretty garden-variety “pretend to look busy/effective while working for my actual interests” type liars, you can see that kind of behavior in any large corporate environment, too, it’s ubiquitous. Gets more disingenuous, and common to the point of being mere table stakes, the higher one goes on those rungs too. Usually.
So I’m just not willing to call their failures incompetence. It’s not a unified monolith of course, but the Chuck Schumer’s of the world know EXACTLY what they’re doing. And they’re no dummies, even if I don’t think they’re some kind of magically-capable puppetmasters.
It’s as simple as their interests being much more similar to that of their peers (of either party), and to the donors for both parties, and miles away from our interests. I’m not claiming special abilities, just regular tier competence. You seem to be insisting instead that it’s incompetence with the right goals, and I don’t see the evidence for that. I DO see lots of PR.
this is my assessment as well, they are competently achieving the wrong goals for society.
They’re controlled in the sense that they represent class interests that are opposed to those of their nominal constituency. By paying some lip service to vaguely progressive policies, they capture roughly half of the voters in a system built to exclude any real working-class political representation.
Controller by nothing and accountable to no one is a weird definition of controlled.
What do you mean? They are accountable to their class collaborators. They benefit from all sorts of “campaign contributions”, corrupt dealings, lobbying and investments. For sure some of them have the additional guarantee of epstein-variety blackmail.
Systemic problems require no malice.
I’m not clear on what you mean here. The system is a kind of an embodiment of malice towards the poor. I’m not saying that all these politicians are consciously malicious, I’m saying that they don’t work for us.