What? Layne Staley died of his addiction, likely a blood infection based on the interviews ive seen. He refused to stop and get medical attention. My best friends mother drank herself to death, with a broken hip, she drug herself into her car and drove to the liquor store and just honked at people until someone would get the liquor she wanted, then drove home to drink alone. These people had every opportunity and resource to stop, and get the drug, and chose the drug, even when their health was wanning.

Death is perhaps one of the most natural part of addiction. Stopping is abnormal.

Thats a shame about the rehab.

I agree AA, and NA should not be govt mandated. Id just say its spiritual instead of religious. I know thats a worn thin sentence, but I think it highlights the above mentioned difficulty of developing the desire to stay stopped. If you’ve spent years in the street, a whole different approach to life is required, but completely foreign. You gotta trust someone else’s suggestions on a sort of blind faith at first until you see results. Unfortunately, like you say, its the Bible stuff the programs were originally rooted in that is most common. I decided to be the change I wanted to see in my area, and its well received every time.

When I stay sober for years without saying the lord’s prayer or even appealing to sky daddy, and have grounded real experience as both an active addict and a recovering addict, you cant argue. I have always had a desire to help others and I was taught “each one teach one.” My sponsor said, if youre the first athiest here, teach the second, and save a life. I stay partly because I want an atheist to be able to find me. I dont even have to be at the meeting they show up to because people know about me now, and can just be like “yeah I know a guy thats an atheist, dont sweat it.”

Great chat. Hope you’re in a great place today.

There are no official AA or NA living facilities. Its against the 12 traditions. If someone characterized it that way to you then they were mistaken, or some group that isnt AA or NA is trying to take advantage of their reputation.

I’ve lived in recovery houses. A home that is maintained as a place for recovering people to live. Sort of like a halfway house, but not for people being released from jail. It was the only rent I could afford, being homeless (100 a week 20 yrs ago, where rent on a studio was double that). They required attendance in some recovery program, but not necessarily 12 step. It was a come up for me. If you own a home, or are stable in your housing in some otherway, its not really an advantage.

Unless you know the people there. I moved into 2 houses where I had already been friends with the people living there, through NA mtg attendance. So it was just like having roommates. Thats often not the case though.

I see people poo poo 12 step recovery and recovery houses all the time, and Ill admit, we’re talking about unstable people doing their best. I had already developed a good street sense by the time I hit the rooms, so if thats not the case for you, it can be off putting to find out what its like at the bottom for a lot of people.

The religious stuff, ill just say, you were talking to pushy individuals. They are out there. I actually have people tell me that theyre glad im an atheist, so a new person can see they dont have to listen to the Bible thumper in the mtg. I shoot em down every time. Im too smart for their scripts lol.

I just dont want someone to read this thread and avoid their local group without ever trying it. Its free and lasts an hour. If you think the people are assholes, try a different 1 maybe. After a couple hours investment, you’ll know if you can hang with the folks there or not.

I’ve followed her for a little bit now. I guess yt could tell I seen a cup of perc coffee or two and showed me her videos about AA. Ill say, she’s not wrong about poor behavior of repected members. She’s missing a lot of context though.

She wants a top down enforcement of policy to root out bad behavior. Completely reasonable in a govt, business, or religion that has leadership that is stable for the most part for years at a time. This is not the case for AA. Most groups that meet on a given day are simply the people in driving range that want to chat and work on themselves a bit in some quick group talk therapy. The membership is informal so as not to put of the reticent. That might sound sus, but these are people that constantly refuse help, easily accessible help sometimes. People change groups, join multiple, join none but attend many, and a manner of things.

Its like asking America as a whole to do better with allowing pdf files to victimize children. Yes, but its not like anyone’s encouraging it… and if anyone is a creep we watch out for it and warn people when necessary. Just like any group of friends in a neighborhood. Which is what we are, imo.

I’ve never found them anywhere I’ve lived. After a quick google, it seems the main difference is the powerlessness in 1 and the higher power in 2. To me that’s just recognizing i cant stop once I start, and I cant stay stopped without help. Thats it thats all. Its not something I was taught, I’ve proven it to myself. Some people see a devil/God thing there because the culture in America in the 1930s was nominally Christian, and more observant than today.

The main benefit is I can find a meeting in almost any town, any day of the week. I feel at home in a meeting where I know everyone knows what its like to deal with addiction. I can sit down and feel ok, instead of on gaurd.

I am interested to know how low bottom cases fare in smart recovery. I mean like homeless junkies that boost for a living. 12 step recovery seems to have started from the bottom, and smart recovery from the higher bottom cases.

Wow. Im an atheist. Im in an aa mtg room waiting for the mtg to start. No one gives me shit.

Step 2 is just accepting help. Admitting your not the one that has the all the answers. Every modern treatment ive heard of in 20 yrs either cribs aa, or eventually recommends it. Its not perfect, but I know dozens of people that are only alive because of it.

And they didn’t get the voter suppression bill support little Donnie wanted. The Rs were full nelsoned into doing their jobs by TSA lines imo.

Me too. This is the only one that fooled me at first today. Ill take it. If you have to make a joke about ip addresses and the kernel to fool me, then I guess I’m still pretty sharp.

Time to make TACOs.

Oh they will notice an appreciate. All the way to the bank, with your outsized contribution to the bottom line. Better luck next life. Hope you’re born rich next time.

Any thought out system with reincarnation would penalize you for suicide. I seem to remember that Buddhists believe your next life is determined by your performance in this one. You like climb a ladder of existence, and just being a human as opposed to an ant or something is a sign of long term success climbing that ladder. I dont recall what the top was, some spiritual being probably. Go forth and Google.

Yeah, a lot of satanic folk, or just those that like the aesthetic, dont actually believe in a hell or satan. Its often a middle finger to the religious that want to control their lives.

My wife grew up in a Jewish household that celebrates Christmas. They never took any religion seriously. She giggles when she has to go to a catholic mass for a wedding or something. She didn’t grow up with it and its as silly to her as Satan worship or witchcraft is to other people.

What you consider normal is mostly a function of exposure.