Is it simply over-correcting in response to western anti-communist propaganda? I’d like to think it’s simply memeing for memes sake, but it feels too genuine.

  • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
    0·
    2 months ago

    Mhm. I get that your country is hostile to the world and its own citizens. I do. But that doesn’t make Stalin - or any era USSR - good.

    The USSR was good based on its own progressive merits.

    From your post I can see you preemptively dismiss any critisizm or argument and while you said MLs don’t idealise Stalin, it seems that you do.

    I don’t.

    I’m from Poland. To us, to a country betrayed by the Allies and sold to Stalin, their occupation did not bring prosperity, or equality, nor socialism.

    I’ve spoken to people from Poland that have the opposite to say. The fall of socialism in Poland brought a dramatic collapse in any kind of left, which is why Poland is so far-right today.

    We were systematically robbed by the USSR from the wealth, intellect and industry (as noted by then governments and listed as a plea for USSR to stop), we were made take loans to invest in the Empire, while staying a satelite country. We did call then the Red Army - Red Locust. You need to realise that when you glorify it, you automatically dismiss our traumatic past. It is like getting told by a stupid child that if we’re hungry we should eat cake.

    Again, I’ve heard much the opposite. That’s why anecdotes are terrible measures of truth. The collapse of socialism in Eastern Europe brought skyrocketing poverty rates, prostitutuon, drug abuse, homelessness, and 7 million excess deaths.

    Since USA wages war outside its territory and was never invaded, you might not know that trauma - especially from war and being a conquered nation - is transgenerational https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenerational_trauma

    I’m aware.

    Were they people who thrived under USSR occupation? Yes, but they are thriving currently too, both politicians and capitalist leeches. Did Poland progress under the occupation? Yes, like every damn other country in Europe. We would progress more as free people, no historian thinks differently.

    And yet Poland is now in a far-right spiral with far greater disparity.

    When I read your comments I can’t not see you as anything else than a guilt feeling nepo baby. Or at least someone so privileged, that they never ever thought about other people lives outside of statistics. An empty headed academic.

    Cool story, you know nothing about me. Believe it or not, statistics and historical fact do outweigh simple anecdote, and the idea that I have never thought about people’s lives outside of statistics is deeply wrong.

    • ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip
      0·
      2 months ago

      What anecdote? I’ve made no anecdotes? The only person mentioning any anecdotes is you, e.g.

      Again, I’ve heard much the opposite

      Regarding USSR stealing industry:

      https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grabież_i_przejmowanie_mienia_poniemieckiego_na_Ziemiach_Odzyskanych#%3A~%3Atext=Grabież+i+przejmowanie+mienia+poniemieckiego+na+Ziemiach+Odzyskanych+–+Wikipedia%2C+wolna+encyklopedia

      (I’m sorry wo don’t really translate that to English). But you can try to Google for sources in English.

      I’ve spoken to people from Poland that have the opposite to say

      You might’ve spoken to people who remember the late 80’s fondly. Not 50-70s. Or ZOMO (secret terror police) or similar, they always had privileged lives.

      Unless you were in the Party, Army or Zomo, life was not roses at all, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_October

      The collapse of socialism in Eastern Europe brought skyrocketing poverty rates, prostitutuon, drug abuse, homelessness, and 7 million excess deaths.

      1. Poland is not Eastern Europe

      2. prostitutuon, drug abuse, homelessness <- you might be confusing that with what is common in the USA.

      3. Excess deaths https://wol.iza.org/articles/mortality-crisis-in-transition-economies/long#%3A~%3Atext=Features+of+the+transition+mortality%2Climited+changes+in+family+stability.

      4. skyrocketing poverty rates

      Not really, no? After we detached from the ZSSR everything had to be restarted and the first decade was hard. We had to start from little, figure out export routes, rebuild a damn lot of industries etc? We were economy attached and made dependant on USSR, how could the split not be hard?

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
        0·
        2 months ago

        Poland, prior to socialism, was 2/3rds controlled by foreign capital, and was severely lagging behind the rest of Europe industrially. By 1948, Poland’s industrial output was 153% of what it had been in 1938. Post-war, the economy grew over 300% from 1945 to 1948.

        In the 1930s, Polish life expectancy was ~46 years old. After the introduction of socialism, and improved healthcare, it reached 70. Before socialism, literacy rates were ~80% in urban areas and ~30% in rural areas. With socialism, total literacy rates were 98%. With socialism came legalized abortion and greatly expanded women’s rights.

        The dissolution of socialism, as I said, brought ~7 million deaths around the world. You didn’t dispute that, the argument seems to be on your end that these were necessary for economic growth. What Poland could have done is remain socialist.

        • ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip
          0·
          2 months ago

          Everything else tomorrow, its 1am

          The dissolution of socialism, as I said, brought ~7 million deaths. You didn’t dispute that, th

          I literally added a link it was 8400. You gave no sources. Trust me bro is not a source.

              • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
                0·
                2 months ago

                Because Paul Cockshott is an economist, and references real facts in his review. Just what I had on hand. Here’s a grab from the PDF:

                • ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip
                  0·
                  2 months ago

                  1. Dude. It is a review of a fictional book with no sources attached. How do I know it’s fiction? Author says so on Goodreads.

                  2. We were talking about Poland being conquered by the USSR and that it was better without it. The excess Russian deaths you’re quoting - if they were true and not from a fiction book - still wouldn’t matter for Poland being better off without USSR? Do you see the distinction between those 2? One is USSR, the other is Poland, and the excess deaths (I linked before) in Poland were 8400?

                  • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
                    0·
                    2 months ago

                    1. The review is of a fictionalized socialist scenario. The author of the review is an economist that opposes the fictional allegories. This isn’t complicated.

                    2. The source is not Red Plenty, which is fiction. The source is the economist Paul Cockshott’s review of Red Plenty, which makes mistakes in its presentation of alt-history. This is not a difficult concept to grasp. Further, the point about the dissolution of the USSR causing deaths everywhere holds true, you see the 8400 people that died due to abandoning socialism as “necessary costs.”

    • ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip
      0·
      2 months ago

      Splitting this to a separate comment because it was too long:

      The fall of socialism in Poland brought a dramatic collapse in any kind of left, which is why Poland is so far-right today.

      I mean dude, not even close. Polish leftist parties were antiworker from the 90s. Anything further left was dismissed as “USSR was saying the same lies”. Fool me once kind of thing.

      Add to that the short time where there was upwards mobility in the country when it first became “capitalists”, as well as fhe fact that in the past 20 years median personal real wealth grew.

      And yet Poland is now in a far-right spiral with far greater disparity

      Yup. The current generation is seeing that the wealth is unequally distributed (1% owns 45% of wealth), as well as all those rentier leeches, banks making record profits year after year, and the Facebook/Tiktok ( or generally USA right wing) propaganda is turning like 10% into MAGA-style idiots, and the rest is also slowly radicalizing. We do see that in the below 35 age group the left-leaning is still strongest, but the PIS and Konfederacja are following Repulican party strategies and gaining tracktion.

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
        0·
        2 months ago

        So in other words, the far-right used the standard red-scare playbook to purge communists and socialists, and now Poland has immense disparity and is entirely controlled by the far-right.

        • ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip
          0·
          2 months ago

          No, don’t hyperbolize. This isn’t your narrative.

          the far-right used the standard red-scare playbook to purge communists and socialists

          No. It was everyone in the free Poland. We were rebelling constantly under USSR occupation.

          and now Poland has immense disparity and is

          No. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SI.POV.GINI?locations=PL&start=1985 But we do see foreign corporations leeching from us and actively enshittifying. The home ownership rate is decreasing.

          and is entirely controlled by the far-right.

          That depends what you mean by far right. I’d call the current political landscape of Poland as right-centrist PO in coalition with centrists (the rest of the coalition) vs (oppositon) right-centrist PiS with (growing) republican-clone Konfederacja

            • ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip
              0·
              2 months ago

              The Polish economy was hit particularly hard by the 2008/2009 crisis.

              ??? We’re famously the only country in the EU that wasn’t affected by it. Please be critical of what you read.

              What a garbage article you sent here.

              Further, disparity in Poland is high,

              I literally send you a credible source that shows its similar to 1985 year. Are you saying that it was high during USSR occupation or ignoring the source?

              • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
                0·
                2 months ago

                From the source linked:

                EU membership ought to have been a boon for Poland, a country which in 2004 was still recovering from the dead years of communism. Access to Western European markets ought to have supercharged that recovery.

                Initially that is what seemed to happen. Between 1992-2004 the Polish economy more than doubled in size from just under $100billion to $250billion, according to the World Bank. Between 2004 and 2008 it doubled again to peak at $500billion. But since then Polish GDP has flatlined.

                Of course the global recession of 2008/09 affected all economies yet for the Polish economy to be a little smaller in 2015 than it was in 2008 is a shocking indictment of EU membership. The EU has managed to turn a high-growth economy into a stagnant one.

                Why was Polish GDP flatlining? Why did millions leave Poland?

                I literally send you a credible source that shows its similar to 1985 year. Are you saying that it was high during USSR occupation or ignoring the source?

                Not only is the gini coefficient misleading, but it only goes back to 1985 in your source. Upon the adoption of capitalism, Poland has had unstable growth to even flatlining, is now being sold out to foreign companies, and again, has purged its left in favor of the far-right.

                • ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip
                  0·
                  2 months ago

                  You’re confusing my critique that USSR sucked for Poland with your imagination that means I must love capitalism?

                  affected all economies yet for the Polish economy to be a little smaller in 2015 than it was in 2008 is

                  Are you both stupid? I figured how you calculated that. You both took a look at the “Polish GDP in USD” and compared.

                  In 2007 USD to PLN was ~2.77 exchange rate.

                  In 2008 it was ~2.41 because USA had recession.

                  In 2015 it was ~3.4 because USA is again corporating and stealing.

                  This is GDP, but adjusted for PPP (PPP = how much shit we can buy locally) for Poland:

                  https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL&start=1990

                  Did not go down in 2008.

                  The idiot you’re quoting would have to compare, p25, p50 and p90 income adjusted for inflation between those years, which they didn’t. And if they did, they’d notice it was up. The only dip we had in 2022.

                  Upon the adoption of capitalism, Poland has had unstable growth to even flatlining,

                  Prove it. You make wild claims, prove them.

                  (Also I’m curious what you think about China then since they gave up on communism if favour of their current flavour of capitalism leeching off of worker class)

                  • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
                    0·
                    2 months ago

                    You’re confusing my critique that USSR sucked for Poland with your imagination that means I must love capitalism?

                    You’re batting pretty hard for capitalism and against socialism.

                    Are you both stupid? I figured how you calculated that. You both took a look at the “Polish GDP in USD” and compared.

                    In 2007 USD to PLN was ~2.77 exchange rate.

                    In 2008 it was ~2.41 because USA had recession.

                    In 2015 it was ~3.4 because USA is again corporating and stealing.

                    Amazing, Poland is getting dominated by foreign capital just like it was before it was socialist and somehow that’s not connected to it being capitalist again for you.

                    Prove it. You make wild claims, prove them.

                    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.KD.ZG?locations=PL

                    Also I’m curious what you think about China then since they gave up on communism if favour of their current flavour of capitalism leeching off of worker class

                    The PRC is a socialist country, they never gave up on communism. Public ownership remains the principle aspect of the economy and the working classes remain in charge of the state. The PRC is rapidly rising thanks to socialism, while capitalist states in the global north are dying away. Pretty positive about the PRC, though like every state it’s imperfect.