Now that this community has mods, I think we should come to something approaching a consensus on whether there should be a rule against posting “nice” comics from transphobic and other kinds of bigoted artists. People like Stonetoss and Jago who have a lot of innocent-looking relatable comics, but also post the most mean, bigoted propaganda.
And I’d like to present a third option besides yes and no: one might post comics from bigoted artists after removing the artist credit, if the mods think that’s a good compromise.
My fear with banning artists who have made bigoted comics is how that relates to older comics. For example I really enjoy those Jucika strips, but given their age I wouldn’t be that surprised if the original artist had some opinions that we wouldn’t tolerate today.
Regardless of my fear, I’m more concerned with having a space that’s welcoming to all people and I’m well aware of the “Nazi bar” problem. So I would come down on having a ban list of bigoted creators that aren’t welcome here.
after removing the artist credit
Oh god, please not. This is a whole different can of worms that does not need to be opened in this particular discussion.
We personally agree in removing their comics, though should never remove credits even to a bigoted artist. We personally would rather not like a comic and it’s from a transphobic bigot -a fellow trans person
Anthropologists observe societies, writing about them dispassionately and adopting a non-interference, non-judgement policy.
At some point a group of academics decided they wanted to include moral discussions (particularly about their own society), on how things come to be a certain way, and how they could develop differently. Thus Sociology was born.
Anthropology still exists, Sociology eclipsed it, it didn’t kill it. They’re aspects of each other, not in competition.
This is the censorship debate in a nutshell. A community picks a side, and the other side is free to branch off. The choices here are: Comics can be anything, even 3D printed gun files, or porn! No limits! We’re all here to just observe.
Or; we need to advocate some limits, some values. Some values are better for the world, and some are worse.
I believe the no-limits crowd have the less considered standpoint. No group is free from having standards and values. We already moderate, it’s the nature of social groups with implicit rules and ideals.
In my opinion, we’re here to do more than just observe the chaos. We adopt a stance. Improving the world as best we can. So we must decide what improves it, and what doesn’t.
I don’t think totally uncensored free speech improves the world. It still imposes a set of values that impact the world - even if advocates pretend that no choice has been made.
I am a firm believer in “There is no better disinfectant than sunlight.”
I want to see the most vile aspects of people, I want it to be on full display so we know who they are, and we can counter them directly.
I think the algorithm has done a MASSIVE amount of damage by cordoning things off and creating little pockets of filth festering in darkness out of view until it overflows and spills out on us all.
That isn’t how this works.
It doesn’t start with the most vile filth. It starts with slightly edgy jokes, employs irony, and works slowly towards getting you to believe whatever racist slop they’re selling. “The alt right playbook” was a youtube series from like a decade ago that covers some of this. I don’t usually like youtube videos, but that one I make an exception for.
And yet the pipeline works because it’s an “inside” thing, the more people who see and recognize the dog whistles the less likely it is to spread with people remaining unaware that is is.
I firmly disagree. “The way to stop Nazism is to let them talk more and let more people see a bunch of Nazi stuff” can be judged as nonsense by inspection.
the algorithm has done a MASSIVE amount of damage by cordoning things off and creating little pockets of filth festering in darkness out of view until it overflows and spills out on us all.
This describes how society in general has handled all vices, since long before the Internet.
Sadly accurate, but it has been wilful ignorance, now it is enforced by what the machines think we want to see.
I think it is worse now, than before, it was a lot easier to pick up that “other” newspaper than it is to break out of your algorithm.
now it is enforced by what the machines think we want to see.
The Machines aren’t operating of their own accord. They’re being told what to show, to who, and when. Someone sets those rules for the algorithm and updates them periodically for profit.
As I said in my longer comment, it’s not machines doing objective and unbiased calculations, it’s political. A billionaire constructed echo chamber we all now live in. The aim is sometimes to profit and keep us addicted, other times it’s to promote candidates who share Billionaire’s profit motive. But it’s never an objective democratic analysis.
We have to always be mindful of who is pulling the levers and why, and that’s the truth of it.
You’re mistaken in thinking “The Algorithm” is some objective equation. I can’t stress this enough -
It’s not.
It’s a lever, a programatic tool billionaires can adjust to control public opinion. What’s more there’s evidence of this. Internal leaks from Facebook/Meta reported that they were fully aware certain types of commercial beauty standards content embeded in social media in an unmoderated fashion on their sites were inadvertently causing young girls to display suicidal ideation.
They didn’t stop it (because of the ad profit). There’s a whole two part podcast on this (and other forms of confirmed algorithmic damage here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIR0Kd27RhI ).
Likewise, YouTube prior to Trump’s election were very much aware that their algorithm was leading young men through a pipeline to far-right ideas and Nazi content (again, this podcast episode discusses the news and facts of this case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IekScPTekz8 )
I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH, the idea that Sunlight will disinfect our views, is no-longer (and I believe the sources cited in those two podcasts show this), is no longer a viable opinion. It’s really an abdication to a higher power, without anywhere NEAR enough awareness of what that “higher power” really is: A loaded version of free speech, where the richest promote and demote views that best suit their interests.
I’m not saying I have a solution, but it’s really fucking important that we all strongly recognize the gravity and extent of the problem. Because people are now growing up in, and entire social circles are being actively politically groomed by these algorithms in a way that’s never happened to this extent before.
The free market of ideas is a convenient LIE which benefits the wealthy and most people do not push back on at all (they see it as objective and impartial). We need far left radicalism but there are no billionaires interested in allowing that into their algorithmically walled gardens - where they control the “sunlight” of what your feed thinks is popular.
They aren’t accusing the left of indoctrinating the young because it was happening. They were accusing them, because they were doing it themselves already, algorithmically.
The “indoctrination” is just another Satanic Panic, the dumbest things you have ever heard being repeated enough by “trusted” sources it becomes fact to them.
It’s Meta and Xitter now, though, not James Dobson on AM radio.
I think if we require artist name in the title, people can easily filter it out.
Do not remove artist credit, people have the right to know who made the art. For the question of “can you separate art from the artist”, everyone is going to have a different stance on it, and even then it may vary depending on the severity of the artist’s action. Removing the artist credit removes people autonomy in that regard.
It also opens the door for people to claim “Billy made one off hand joke 17 years ago, so now we must crop out all their credit because it’s an advertisement”.
Consistent rules will be best. Making exceptions and attempting to maintain a blacklist gets messy to manage and can get out of hand.
This is the only workable option. Anything else is just asking for trouble in one form or another.
Ah yes let’s censor another community and create yet another safe space instead of acting like adults and simply ignoring content we disagree with.
On this day in the year of our lord 2026 let it be so! Self regulation doesnt stand a chance against the might of thoughtcrime censorship and virtue signaling!
/s grow up people. Don’t like stonetoss? Don’t read it. Scroll on. Don’t limit the rest of us because you never learned to control your own reactions.
The irony that you threw the biggest whiney, snowflake, pussy ass comment saying to ignore things you don’t like and move on with your day is 😙👌
Speaking out against censorship is exactly the same thing as saying I should mind my business and move along. Yep. That’s why the first amendment is all about “keep your mouth shut and do what youre told to do”. I always forget.
Ok pussy
I believe having no-rules is a choice that damages the world, when the aim should be to improve it. After all: If you choose no-rules, you’re choosing extremism; 3D printed guns might be comics, lolicon, violent porn, and hate groups.
Society is built on moderating the few for the good of the many. Currently the few that need moderation are alt-right billionaires, and corrupt rightwing officials. It’s okay for the community to adopt this viewpoint (which means protecting trans people, and being open to the economic left).
You speak about improving the world, but how can that be your aim when youre limiting the thoughts your chosen few are allowed to think? Censure in thought is blindness in action. You can’t grow socially without having your thoughts questioned and your beliefs tested. The only thing you have left after a while is obedience, and obedience is death to true growth.
Testing limits is how people define themselves. You dont know who you really are until you start finding lines you can’t cross. Those borders define who you are and who you have the capacity to become.
I was never a fan of furries. Trying to fuck an animal is despicable behavior that should be unquestionably eradicated. Then I pushed my own boundaries because someone I care about took a minute to explain their interest to me. People dont want to fuck animals. They just want to make weird art. And that’s fine. But you need to find where that line is for yourself to understand how to feel about new things.
All this is to say that questionable content is essential for personal growth, and eliminating that content from a community does nothing to improve it. So you dont like stonetoss. Fine. Don’t post them. But dont force everyone to not post them because you personally dont like it. Just because you’ve found your line doesnt mean there isnt someone else who still needs to find theirs.
You don’t like how a community self-moderates, or the views it goes by, then you’re free to construct an alt-right battleground comic strip community as an alternative.
But some of us like to have nice things and nice places, without mistaking furries and beastiality.
You want personal political growth? Go join a political debate sub, or learn philosophy and history. There are places for the battlelines, where you can learn these lessons, and then there are places where we uphold the rewards of the good, the right, and the true.
NOT the edgy. “Edgy” is called that, specifically because it’s on the edge of what’s socially unacceptable. It’s the political battlefront of the Overton window. Well, not everyone wants that everywhere, all the time.
You believe this is the venue for it. I don’t want it to be. I’m not on the frontline of some alt-right culture war right now. I seek to be among friends in safe spaces.
If you seek alt-right, edgy comedy, and far-right spaces, you should go do that somewhere else… Or at the very least, if that’s not your jam… Then don’t advocate on their behalf here.
Its funny how you’ve latched onto alt right viewpoints as your touchstone. I know I’ve mentioned stonetoss a few times, as does the OP, but stonetoss doesnt matter. Its not about alt right or hard left or anything in-between. Its about freedom of expression.
Would you have censored Kathy Griffin when she was a media black sheep because it caused too many political discussions? How about blocking any comics with depictions of Mohammed because it deeply offends Islamic people? You know what, let’s block any comic depicting nazis or KKK robes because that could be upsetting to some people. Fuck it, might as well ban any political commentary at all because some parties might feel uncomfortable.
I dont give a shit about your pedestal youre trying to build. “The good, the right, and the true” sounds like an SS ubermench recruitment line. You have neither the authority nor the perspective to determine right, good, or true for anyone besides yourself. You aren’t looking for a safe space. You want an echo chamber to masturbate your ego.
Part of comedy is the unexpected and the uncomfortable. Its the great bridge that allows socially “unacceptable” ideas to be reframed and relit in a way that fosters discussion and thought. I think you may need to look somewhere besides comics if you dont want to risk being uncomfortable.
Lets see, the hard right are the substrate of economic and political inequalities across the board. Some when idiot centrists peddle this “it’s not about left or right” crap, they’re really just saying they’re either completely politically, historically, and sociologically uninformed… Or they’re just saying “Yes, I’m a fascist”.
So which is it with you? Have you just never paid attention to the history of politics and society, or are you just some right wing douche posing as a centrist?
Actually, as a native American, I have some inkling as to the effects of politics and society with special emphasis on how silencing minority voices does little to foster growth or equity.
When I say its not about the left or right, what i mean is that its all the same fucking bird shitting all over this beautiful land regardless of which wing youre looking at.
Silencing opinions that do not agree with the party line is fascist behavior. I know you tankies dont like hearing about how friendly father joe was just as bad if not worse than actual Hitler, but thems the beans. Its historic fact.
So build your echo chamber and tell yourself its okay because only you have the right way.
Okay, so you’re a dumb ass. Observe:
When I say its not about the left or right, what i mean is that its all the same fucking bird shitting all over this beautiful land regardless of which wing youre looking at.
Oh yeah, “left and right don’t matter”? So left and right are equally as likely to be environmentalists are they? Dumb ass much?
Silencing opinions that do not agree with the party line is fascist behavior.
Oh yeah, “left” and “right” are party names are they? No, they’re not. They’re broad indicators which no party actually accomplishes or lives up to when in power, because to get into power you need to be a corrupt right leaning Capitalist, because that’s the ideology of those who fund campaigns and want to avoid taxes and break democracy/laws.
You obviously don’t know this, but the current tech bro elite literally want to get rid of democracy because it risks them paying taxes or suffering consequences.
So build your echo chamber
What the fuck do you think ruling class Capitalism is? You’re a confused son of a bitch aren’t you? Claiming you want to foster equality and, then accusing others of being tankies just for fucking pointing out the ruling classes lean right at heart because it gives them more room to beat people down.
Like, what kind of dumb ass thinks both sides are as bad as each other, then complains that the environment isn’t being taken care of? and that we need to foster more equality? OH YEAH, THOSE ARE RIGHTWING GOALS ARE THEY?
No, they’re NOT. Fascism is Capitalism’s immune system. It’s what money does to protect its interests. Most of the overt pollution and corruption is due to moneyed powers. One “side” has more inclination to go against that.
The other side has money and a disregard for environmentalism.
Anyways, thanks for letting us know that you’re a dumb ass. Like I said “both-siders” and “everyone gets a say” type “centrists” are really just endorsing the status quo, and right wing ruling class fascism. You endorse the pollution, corruption, destruction, all of it.
Censorship is not the correct word for what you are referring to. That is when someone is silenced. Hateful messaging being the subject of removal is something to be thankful about. It is pure folly to invoke the snowflake argument again at this hour on this platform: One can just skim recent history to learn that the hateful also are the ones concerned with virtue, as if briefly examining themselves amid a storm of deflection. The built in manufactured maturity complex should be a warning sign to consult a doctor, or the hate surely will ruin the last shreds of joy inside. At that point the right to ask why you feel like shit all the time pass by and that tipping point is the pipeline that feeds the oligarchy
Move along, this isn’t a safe space for hate.
It’s not a safe space for censorship either. Why should we all put up with that oglaf shit? Because this is a space for sharing comics. Not Ally comics, not Trans friendly comics, not even cherry picked non-discriminatory comics. Its just for comics, inclusive.
of you don’t like it, you can leave
I support this rule. If I see comics I enjoy I will often go look them up. It’s awful to dive into a new comic and find hateful content that I didn’t expect. Prohibiting comics from known hateful bigots would help avoid that.
After reading the comments here I have been convinced we should create a list of these artists, and none of their content is welcome in this community.
Main points being:
- allowing their “nice” content creates a pipeline for users to their bigotry
- having it signals to new users we are ok with content from bigots
- it should make moderating easier because there is no need to deliberate what is ok by that creator
Nazis, racists, transphobes, homophobes are not welcome here under any context!
I’m happy to just skip the work of bigots, and have mostly blocked the users who routinely post that stuff.
That saif, if we’re going to remove credit with intent, i have a request:
let’s be clear and cedit “some random bigot”, so I’ll know i might not want to seek out the artist.
I hate this book burning mentality. It’s not because the person is bad that the content is nessarly bad. Like, if war and peas’s author turned out to be transphobic, would that automatically turn all of their comics bad?
Although it doesn’t mean that hate and bigoted comics shouldn’t be banned. That part is the actual offensive part.
And removing credits is actually scummier than posting bigoted comics imo
…in order for this discussion to make sense, one needs to define what is and what isn’t transphobic. This issue gets real subjective, real quick. What we objectively know about this state and it’s associated comorbidities sometimes directly contradicts what is considered socially acceptable. Is an opinion or belief that offends a transgender person by definition transphobic?
This isn’t book burning. This is more like we’re refusing to print and distribute more copies of their books for them.
You know, the books the Nazis burned were from the library of Magnus Herschfeld, the director of the Berlin Sexology Institute. He was gay, and much of the library was ABOUT queerness, and transgender studies.
The comics strips we’re talking about aren’t being destroyed. But a lot of trans people in the world are, and they risk themselves simply by being who they are.
That is more worthwhile than access to edgy comics on a public forum like this. Better that far-right stuff get blocked, than trans people getting burned.
It’s okay for a forum to have a political position. I’d prefer it to be left of center.
There are many comics in the world. Banning a handful of horrible creators won’t starve the community for content. It will create space for non-horrible artists.
Allowing the “nice” comics by horrible people just creates a funnel for people to click though and be exposed to hateful ideas.
If in several months the ban list has grown monstrous in size, we could revisit, but that seems unlikely.
It’s not book burning or censorship. The horrible creators remain entitled to host their own websites or their own instances.
Can you explain to me how censorship of problematic artists is not really censorship?
Because a comics sub on Lemmy is not the government or a church or any other powerful organisation that has any reach beyond itself
It’s a small community of people who are allowed to decide not to welcome bigotry
Ohhhhh so when its just a few people its okay to ignore things they dont like. Quick, hid that info from billion dollar fossil fuel advocates! They must never know the power of ignoring inconvenient reality. Imagine how well they’d sleep at night
“If we don’t flood the front page with Nazi stuff, we’re as bad as the Nazis” was always my least favorite argument.
If I step into your group of friends one evening and start an unprompted 4 hour lecture on 17th Century Agriculture, would it be censorship if you asked me to leave?
Small communities are allowed to curate themselves. It’s not censorship without that power dynamic, and on some level you yourself must understand this since your go-to comparison was ‘billion dollar fossil fuel advocates’
Curating would require active moderation. This isnt a proposal for increased moderation, but a content based ban decided by which artists are or are not haram to your leftist sensibilities at any given time. Why should the lemmy.world instance of comicstrips be censored when you can make a new instance like “safestripsforgoodboysandgirls” instead of fucking over the larger community?
Why should the lemmy.world instance of comicstrips be censored when you can make a new instance like “safestripsforgoodboysandgirls” instead of fucking over the larger community?
If most people here are in favour of it, then that’s why.
And then you can leave and make a new instance with your preferred amount of bigotry
Will you write “I’m an idiot” on your forehead for me? If not, am I being censored? Why or why not? Should you be obligated to carry my message anywhere I desire?
Nobody should be obligated to parrot your mouth diarrhea, no. But that does not mean its okay for an entire community to discourage your mouth diarrhea simply for being distasteful.
That’s censorship, just in case you were having trouble identifying the concept we are discussing.
Nobody is obligated but the community is obligated?
Personal preference is not censorship. Banning an artist from an artistic community because the community can’t regulate their own emotions is censorship.
So the individuals running a forum cannot moderate the forum. It must be open to any and all content. Otherwise that is censorship, and bad.
Well, I infer from your tone you think censorship is always bad. Maybe you’re just splitting a hair about how in a sense content moderation is censorship.
because the community can’t regulate their own emotions is censorship.
The biggest eyeroll
My big problem with censorship is that it dulls the mind. Safe spaces do the same thing. If your thoughts and beliefs are never questioned, you can never grow as a person. Echo chambers are breeding grounds for ignorance. Our world is not tolerant of ignorance. Being unable to react appropriately to emotionally inflammatory bait makes us all weaker on an emotional level.
If you want to coddle yourself, make a safe space to do so. Don’t take an open forum and limit it to suit your preferences. The internet is infinite. Make a new space with your own rules.
no. I have a block button if I don’t like how a person submits. why would I want this type of thing done at the community level? Ultimately its the federation so it won’t matter as there are other comic communities.
why would I want this type of thing done at the community level?
I have an RSS feed for my unfiltered comics.
I read here for the community.
I don’t use rss but I agree im here for community engagement but not for community censorship.
I don’t think propaganda is a matter of personal responsibility. I think we should protect other people from propaganda, not just ourselves.
See to you its propaganda. From your viewpoint. You should not be making that call for others. You are not protecting them you are inflicting your way of thinking on them. They are not defenseless. They can block for themselves. This for me comes down to a thing I have not talked about in a awhile but what I would like to see in the federation. I would like no defederation or unreversable domain blocking. Im fine if it blocks stuff by default but I should be able to go into my user config and turn off any of the default blocking. I, and others, should have 100% control of our experiences and it should not be dictated by others.
They can block for themselves. This for me comes down to a thing I have not talked about in a awhile but what I would like to see in the federation. I would like no defederation or unreversable domain blocking.
This will never ever happen.
I don’t think its completely impossible but I totally realize its highly unlikely. never know though. that is the magic of community things as you never know who will take up something. imma peanut gallery though but it surprises me how many folks prefer some sort of on high authority over individual control on something like this. How can anarchist principles work if they can’t even work in 100% virtual and grass roots community endeavour?
It is 100% impossible lol. Rimu won’t do it. Lemmy devs won’t do it.
I don’t know them well enough to know that but they are not the alpha and the omega of all things free/libre or social media. Ten years ago I would not even imagine something like this is now would exist.
You can speculate another platform might come up that some hardcodes in it the impossibility to deplatform other instances, but all I’m saying is that Lemmy and Piefed will not do it.
But even then, it’s a stretch because the tools required to remove seriously illegal content are the part of the same tools that would function as defederation tools. So it probably can’t be hardcoded out.
Wait so let’s say a bunch of pedophiles make a Lemmy instance at the url child.porn. If you have an account on My instance, and I’ve defederated child.porn, you want the option to override defederation and view their posts from My server?
sorry. the one exception to defederation (which can’t be reversed like blocking) is legal reasons.
What if it’s an ambiguous case where I think the content is illegal but you don’t?
The legality of content is not based on what one person thinks or another. It either is or isn’t but the domain owner ultimately has to make the call based on the coutnry they are in and their interpretation of the law.
Well I’ll give you an example. My instance defederated fedinsfw because they have a community that’s called fauxbait. Faux jailbait. Faux child porn that looks like adult porn.
According to the laws of Australia, fake child porn is still child porn. So I defederated them. Some people agree, some people disagree. Do you think I have the right to make that call?
Now let’s say I decide that Hexbear’s habit of sending pictures of filthy porcine testicles to people they don’t like is harassment. Can I defederate them?
Let’s say I think lemmy.world has too much transphobia (because it’s the biggest instance and they don’t have enough mods), and that’s illegal hate speech. Can I defederate them?
Fun fact: lemmy.world hosts its servers in Nederland, where it’s illegal to promote illegal activity. Can they defederate dbzer0 for promoting piracy?
Fact is, every instance hosts illegal content. You’ve got an excuse for every single instance, except the tiny ones with next to no users. So I don’t go by laws. I go by My ethics. I think fedinsfw and Hexbear are too much. Lemmy.world has a lot of problems, but I think it’s as good as it is bad. Same for dbzer0. It’s an ethical judgement call. That’s what I use defederation for.
mods here refuse to remove racist zionist genocider comments, I’m not surprised they are transphobic too
I’m against censorship, but I’m pro for curated content. I would be happy to make a rule in which after reaching a certain amount of downvotes, a post has to be removed. I also think it is reasonable to ban someone if they consistently post content that keeps getting downvoted. This is no different than spamming or trolling.
PieFed has offered a full suite of these features for years now, as have some 3rd party apps.
e.g. not only does it offer automatic removal of content (posts or comments) based on downvotes, but it can alternatively collapse it based on a different, more lenient threshold, requiring an additional click to see it.
There are also keyword filters, and what I like most are the visual icons placed next to certain usernames - this does not “filter” their content but does let me see what I am getting into, so that I know e.g. that replying is probably not going to turn out like I may have hoped.
All of the above puts both the control and also the responsibility into the hands of the end-user, without requiring that a mod team constantly do extra work for other people. Which among other things will necessarily involve a delay before community rules can be applied.
No thank you to censorship.
you can leave
If I leave, that doesn’t help me see the things you want to censor. If you leave, that does help you not see the things you don’t want to.
Weird.
