I was once talking with one of my classmates and he said that in the future, there will be universal basic income implemented by entire world. I was not convinced at that time and thought he is just being stupid but given the layoffs happening and massive amount of unemployment, I am thinking about this possibility. What do you say?
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If Sam Altman pushes hard enough for it.
No. Total war is our future. Then maybe, but we won’t be alive by then
If we replaced all of our current welfare systems with a simple UBI, it would save us money. In terms of running the system, and simplifying taxes. Don’t need to take 5 different taxes out of your paycheck, just one. Earn over a certain amount? You don’t get it. The majority of people won’t, because they’ll be earning enough to pay in but not collect. This would have to be done alongside universal healthcare, as tying healthcare to employment wouldn’t work much anymore, which would also save us a massive amount of money.
The result of which, is an absolute explosion of creative genius and new businesses. People no longer hindered by the threat of starving in the street, or losing their healthcare, would finally be able to start that business they always wanted to. They’d be able to create their long-overdue masterpiece. Literature, art, new inventions. There’s a guy out there right now that, if given the space and a bit of assistance, could create the first prototype of a warp drive. There’s someone else who has a pretty good idea about how to cure dementia, and halt the aging process.
Just imagine the possibilities of actually investing in our people, and in our society, instead of handing all of our money to billionaires, and letting those evil mentally handicapped fuckwits steer the course of humanity straight into a climate change-driven mass-extinction event.
Just Imagine.
Mostly they will just mindlessly consume vices until forced into work.
UBI to me is a leftist pipe dream of how a post-scarcity society could work. When you actually look at the financials and how greedy humanity is, it all falls apart and will either bankrupt entire nations or pay an absolute pittance.
The UK’s voluntary living wage is £13.45 an hour, which translates to £26,227.50 for someone working full time 37.5 hours a week. If we replaced our entire welfare system (state pensions, Universal Credit, child benefit, Personal Independence Payments, Disability Living Allowance, etc) and paid our approx 58.1 million population of working age people and retirees the living wage, it would cost us over £1.5 trillion, or roughly half our annual GDP. Our current welfare expenditure by comparison is at an estimated £333.7 billion.
I am using the Living Wage as a comparison since it’s an agreed metric calculated by a non-profit organisation for how much a worker would need to earn to live on their wage in the UK. To pay a living wage to every adult in the country we would need to spend nearly three times as much as what the USA spends on its military.
The question then becomes “How the fuck will we pay for it?” We can’t even get the rich to pay their fair share of tax as things stand. They are going to flat-out refuse to foot the bill once AI leads to mass unemployment.
What I think is a more likely scenario is societal collapse. People starve, leading to widespread civil unrest and then a brutal and violent crackdown, made easier than ever by armed drones and humanoid robots that have no sense of morals. This is exactly the kind of doomsday scenario that a lot of billionaires are prepping for.
The only way I can see humanity not ripping itself apart is if we somehow purged corporate greed from the system. If we could stop treating housing like a speculative asset and medical care like a piggy bank, we could maybe weather this storm.
You’re forgetting to factor in all the people that won’t receive it because they already earn enough. A majority of people won’t get anything at all. Replacing all of our current welfare systems with a simple UBI would save us money. It’s just that the billionaires are under the impression that it would stop people from working harder for a better life, which is also something they think about our current welfare system, and has never been true.
I’m talking about a scenario where entire industries of workers end up getting displaced by AI and robotics, and I don’t think we’re far off from this becoming a reality. If Tesla’s Optimus 3 robots are anywhere near as advanced as they are rumoured to be, they could easily replace warehouse and logistics workers.
We already have Waymo disrupting the taxi industry further by removing the driver from the equation, and Miso Robotics automating kitchens in restaurant chains like Jersey Mike’s Subs and White Castle.
Also, doesn’t means-testing UBI kinda defeat its intended purpose?
New tools used to replace workers happens throughout the course of human history, I don’t think we will ever see robots replace humans successfully enough to really dent the workforce, they’ll just go to other industries.
Though the one industry whose collapse could spur the entire UBI system, is long-haul truckers. That may happen, but again, I think they’ll just go into other off-shoot industries, and the change in workforce won’t be so dramatic that it’s one day they’re all on the road with jobs, and the next day they’re all out of work. You’ll need truckers with experience to actually park the things for loading/un-loading, and nobody is going to trust an AI or robot with piloting that much freight all by itself. they’ll want a human behind the wheel, ready to take over.
The industry we should be driving people towards is computer chip manufacturing.
Each technological advancement has created new jobs in some capacity. What new jobs has AI created? And don’t tell me “prompt engineer” like every AI bro likes to hype up. That is not an actual position and the fact that I cannot find any jobs advertised where typing out very specific and accurate prompts are one of the skills required is proof of this.
AI isn’t perfect. It hallucinates and sometimes gives bad answers. But I think that we are one incredibly good model away from being able to reliably automate white collar work.
Would be nice but the wealthy won’t allow it. You can trace back to when the wealth/power inequality ramped up and those with the power will never let it go, and worse with their propaganda on all the socials most scroll mindlessly. The same methods to keep people going along with the flow was used way back then and still today. Keep people in low-level thinking, don’t question, just obey supernatural explanations, Perry’s scheme 1-3 of 9, they use all the neurological tricks like fear, reward, belonging, etc so people comply and conform, just what the owners and those who also benefit from the high-control systems want.
what is perry’s scheme?
Here’s some more info and ask more questions to better understand it all, check sources of course to ensure accuracy. share.google/aimode/m9pcjKzfhtWExb89T
Perry’s Scheme of Intellectual and Ethical Development is a framework mapping how human thinking evolves from rigid, absolute black-and-white beliefs to nuanced, context-dependent personal commitments. Developed by William G. Perry Jr., it outlines nine sequential positions grouped into four core stages
UBI is the future if we are allowed peace.
WW3 in an apocalyptic scale is much more likely. Don’t need to feed the obsolete peasants if they’re all dead.
Yes, but not in the way we envision it.
Wealth inequality will increase. Drastically. There will be a small group of people owning basically everything. But they still need cheap labor and subjects, plus someone needs to consume their products. Because jobs will be limited UBI will be implemented: as a baseline to keep us alive, not as a tool for general prosperity.
Watch “Elysium” how this bleak world may look. It’s not a great movie, but has that “everyone but a few people is super fucked”-theme locked down.
Is that movie in English?
Yes. Look for Elysium (2016). It’s by Neill Blomkamp, starring Matt Damon.
Yes, but only because your question implies there is a future for humanity, and I believe UBI is realistically one of the few ways humanity even gets a future
UBI is 100% populist idea. It replaces targeted welfare directed at people who need it with universal one - which is a massive waste of money, and extremly unfair to the working class as it has to be financed with massive taxation.
Funny how Marxists love talking about working class being exploited just to nonchalantly drop UBI around.
IMO Universal Basic Income the second worst idea after so called “Modern Monetary Theory”
I know this is a wild concept, so bear with me:
We could try taxing the owning class, too.
I know this is difficult to comprehend but everything is produced by working class. It doesn’t matter where you take money from, it’s the workers who’ll bear the burden.
If that were true the rich wouldn’t spend fortunes selling tax cuts, they’d just pass the costs directly to the workers instead. The reason the rich spend hundreds of millions to avoid paying taxes is that they know the worker makes the same they did 50 years ago, and the value of the work the rich get to keep has gone up 10x.
rich wouldn’t spend fortunes selling tax cuts
What tax cuts? Highest income bracket is US is taxed at like 37% while lowest is 10%.
worker makes the same they did 50 years ago
Citation needed
Yeah rich don’t pay income tax, income tax is for the working class. Rich get money through debt (0% tax rate) and maybe dividends (0% tax on the first 100k, up to 20% tax at 600k/yr).
Here ya go:
Fair enough
Rich get money through debt (0% tax rate)
You know debts need to be repaid with interest? You have to have taxable income to pay them off.
Dividends
It’s a taxable income. And it comes with a risk of the business failing and your stock losing value.
That’s how debt works for poor people. Rich people do what’s colloquially known as a “buy borrow die”. But an asset, take out loans using the asset as collateral for your entire lifetime, and then die in debt, while passing the asset (minus the debt) along to your heirs.
Dividends and cap gains are not taxes as income, they have separate (lower) tax rates. And those tax rates can be further avoided using the above strategy.
And the nice thing about stock is that poor people have 401(k)s now. Which are legally required to buy certain stocks. Meaning that even if the company shits the bed, every working class person with more than two cents to rub together is still propping up the stock price.
That’s kinda why the spaceX ipo was so fucked. They specifically changed the rules so 401(k) plans would be legally required to buy shares after 15 days instead of 3 or 6 or whatever months. That allowed Elon musk to effectively pump and dump the entire US retirement system.
Extremely unfair to who? We’re the last generations to be employed and have jobs
What Marxists are talking about UBI as proposed by yang and others?
If by UBI you mean everyone has access to housing, food, water, electricity, internet, education, and healthcare, you’re talking about two different things.
UBI proposed assumes corporations replace workers with automations and aims to provide a crutch for those capitalism eats alive, except it doesn’t guarantee any of the things I listed that people need. It just gives them money to spend on corporations.
If by UBI you mean everyone has access to housing, food, water, electricity, internet,
I’m talking in literal meaning as in “universal basic income” where some taxes collected from working class are redistributed to everyone.
Nope it’s not.
Look, most of the taxes are paid by the people, do you think the billionaires are gonna spare a dime? Where UBI is needed, there’s most likely an entire population of working class that’s not generating any tax revenue, and is a net negative for the government. And tax money isn’t just meant to be distributed to the people, it’s for also maintaining infrastructure and building new ones. You realise how much of burden would UBI be on the government? Do you think they can still maintain roads and fund libraries/universities if most of their treasury is being spent on paying people an income?
I don’t think UBI is practical at all. Ground reality is, even governments have finite resources. We genuinely need better plans than just relying on UBI as solution.
The rich will probably just try to kill us all before that happens. We should get rid of the wealthy
What do you mean by “get rid of”?
Use context clues or fuck off
… and over the top hostile for absolutely no reason. Have fun playing out murder fantasies and growing old in your parents basement.
why do you think culture war propaganda was neccesary to create that divisivness and hate.
I think these wars right now are just cover for not giving justice to the victims of Epstein and his friends. This case is so big, even though we have partial documents, that it literally shocked the world and for diverting people minds from that, they are throwing all of these wars.
yes the wars are purely a distraction.
I think this is way more likely then them giving up a share for ubi.
UBI is a bandaid to keep capitalism propped up by neo-liberals. It’s contingent on the idea that society is dependent on people spending money, rather than getting essential services and enough free time to maintain mental stability.
rather than getting essential services
UBI says income, not money. resources and services provided to you would still be income.
Brought to you by Carl’s Jr.
It makes working voluntary but still incentivized, whereas without something like that, someone needs to force people to do the jobs that provide those essential services. People will volunteer doing fun things for their local community, but generally no further.
nah. there’s people out there whose favourite thing is to do the niche “yucky” or tedious things, but they can’t, because they had to get a job in marketing, or work in retail because they needed ANY job just so they could survive.
nah. there’s people out there whose favourite thing is to do the niche “yucky” or tedious things, but they can’t, because they had to get a job in marketing, or work in retail because they needed ANY job just so they could survive.
This is one of those ideas that only makes sense at the surface level and fails at the slightest bit of scrutiny. Yes, it is technically correct that any job out there will have some nonzero number of people who would do it just because they want to. But that’s no way to run a civilization.
That system only works if there just by random coincidence happens to be a perfect match between the jobs people want to do and the jobs that need doing. Are there are a few weirdos that would wade waist-deep in literal shit to clean out sewers for free, just because they enjoy it? It’s a big world and people are weird, so there probably are a few people out there like that. Are there enough of those rare weirdos to keep all our sewers operating? Highly unlikely.
I know your system would fail because we have clear evidence from our own economy that there is a major mismatch between the jobs people want and the jobs that need doing. Look at every job out there that attracts people who want to do the job for its own sake. Look at university teaching, for instance. Universities can get away with having classes taught by poorly paid adjuncts because lots of people would like to teach university courses. There are far more potential university lecturers out there than the number of lecturers universities can actually support. Universities can pay their adjuncts a pittance, and they still have people sign up to teach classes. The low adjunct pay problem would disappear tomorrow if people simply stopped taking adjunct teaching jobs.
Look around to nearly any field that people go into primarily out of passion. They nearly all pay a pittance. “Let people choose whatever job they want” simply isn’t a viable way of running an economy. Everyone wants to teach kids or care for puppies. No one wants to clean out sewers.
You always have to have some way of getting people to work jobs that they wouldn’t choose voluntarily. There are simply things that need to be done for society to function that not many people want to do. In a capitalist system, this is done by offering higher wages for positions few people want. In socialist systems, this looks like offering more perks like better housing to unwanted jobs (pay by another name.) But you’re trying to hand waive away an unavoidable problem by dismissing it as, “no worries, people will just do what they want and things will work out!”
Universities can get away with having classes taught by poorly paid adjuncts because lots of people would like to teach university courses
that’s because those jobs come with pensions and job security. if a UBI was in place, then jobs like that would have no choice, but to offer more money. same with the undesirable jobs like cleaning sewers. can’t fill it? offer more money. this is why farmers have to rely on migrant workers, because they simply can’t pay enough
You think adjunct teaching comes with job security and pensions?
You are completely and utterly unqualified to participate in any discussion whatsoever involving labor issues of any kind. You lack the prerequisite background knowledge.
Yes, I’m sure plenty of people actually wanted to become plumbers, farmers or construction workers, but had to settle for a job in marketing or such because that was all they could find.
i think you get my point, though. during the pandemic, the garden centres emptied out, because people wanted to grow their own food.
Growing your own food isn’t the same as growing food for 10,000 people at all. My family’s been growing a portion of our own food all my life, don’t think any of us wants to work 12+ hour days in the fields in the summer.
Yeah, I mean it’s not like a lot of those services are already populated by people who are underpaid and overworked because they love what they do and love helping people…
You mean people who got the jobs they could get and would prefer not working those jobs if they could get away with it. Trust me, a lot of people working physically demanding jobs don’t do it because of their enjoyment of wrecking their own bodies.
When the whole world is converted into a factory to produce luxuries for the wealthy, and community is a far-off relic of the past, the laborers will be provided with basic subsistence, just enough to keep them alive and able to work. Or they’ll be replaced with automation. Whichever is cheaper.
dystopian but I think it can be true.
We need to tax the wealthy fucks first. The hyperclass has too much wealth that is just sitting around doing nothing but influencing the world negatively. With the existing wealth inequality, UBI won’t even be financed.
#TaxWealth #TaxWealthNotWork
We have to kill or tax all billionaires out of existence first. Their choice. And I don’t mean that with any sentiment of hyperbole.
Taxing (or burying at sea, or grilling on a spit, or force feeding them like foie gras to consume their livers) billionaires out of existence isn’t an issue of generating enough tax revenue. You can consider it a part of why such a thing is important, but it should not be considered the primary point.
The primary point is to reduce the distance between the wealthiest among us and the least wealthy among us. For all it matters, the money re-possessed could be burned. Its utilization is secondary to reducing the disparity.
If being a billionaire was an illegal act punishable by immediate execution, the need for UBI would be dramatically reduced. It would also be dramatically easier to implement.
