Here goes. If the DEI post wasn’t political enough to get removed I think I deserve a shot. Feel free to ask me to clarify points, as I’m so used to not being able to be heard that my initial post will probably be a bit too simplistic.
I’ve heard it preached in two different ways, and while one is more understandable, the other seems ridiculously out of touch.
The first is us low earners. Yeah it sucks if you get paid a dollar less per hour, but in my experience (retail, fast food, factories, etc.) the women got paid more, because they took the jobs more seriously and called off less. But it feels like moot point when you consider that we’re all fighting over table scraps here.
The worst is any talk of high paying jobs, like I’m sorry, but how am I supposed to care if a woman is getting paid multiple thousands of dollars less than her associates when the rest of us can’t pay rent? Oh boohoo, you can’t afford a third car, when I and the woman who makes 50 cents less than me can’t afford rent, food, or medical care.
I always get flamed for talking about this, but it drives me up the wall when people can’t see the obvious staring them right in the face. The wage gap is just a way to get us all snapping at each other instead of the rich.
Personally I think it’s a problem of stagnation. People (Feminists in this case) really don’t like being told their old tactics don’t work sometimes. I mean, they’ve been fighting for this for how long? If you haven’t won yet maybe you’ve got your targets and allies a little mixed up. Maybe demanding you get yours first is pushing away potential support.
Edit:jfc, is this really the best we’ve got? Appeals to capitalistic greed and assumptions about my positions on sexism? No wonder we lost so many men to the right, you’re quite literally proving my title correct.
Oh, is it a day ending in Y? That’s the day where you go make another giant effortpost on lemmy com about how feminists are causing all your problems, right? Same time tomorrow, I presume?
Not feminists, rich people. Feminists can’t see the forest for the trees is the position I’m making, and you’d know that if you cared to engage instead of making snide comments.
“Oh boohoo, you can’t afford a third car, when I and the woman who makes 50 cents less than me can’t afford rent, food, or medical care.”
I feel like learning about exponents might help clarify why the issue scales and is, therefore, worth discussing.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11840126/
I just grabbed this because it was similar to other things I’ve read on the subject, so apologies for skimming, but from what I’ve read in the past, generally high income individuals (up to a point) are far more satisfied with their lives. Would you care to explain how your philosophy approaches that?
Youre even admitting that youre being lazy about it, and you expect people to engage with lazy rhetoric? I had my suspicions but im now convinced, at the absolute oldest, youre 19 years old or at least your psyche is stuck at that age. I dont care to explain anything to anyone who is making claims with the least amount of effort possible. Youre just an angry child. Go have a juicebox, you’ll feel better.
Ah yes, God forbid I don’t want to read multiple pages on a subject I’ve already read up on in the past.
You wonder why people dont agree with you when you refuse to clarify your position? Who’s the child here? You literally put more effort into ad hominem and dismissing my point than actually making a point.
I never mentioned that I wonder why people don’t agree with me. Youre literally making things up. Silly.
… yes, pages. The link I posted has quite a bit to scroll through. Admittedly it might be a bit different from what I’ve read before, but there is quite a bit to get through from what I saw.
Some of us are busy working, cleaning, cooking, between posts.
Every adult works, cleans and cooks. Some of us are capable of doing all of that, plus reading. Crazy, i know.
Yes, because everyone has the same exact life, right? Fuck off troll, you could have been explaining your position instead of being an ass.
brother if an average of 77% meant a dollar less per hour you’d both be better off homeless.
See this is what I’m talking about. That’s an AVERAGE. Not every woman is making exactly 77 cents on the dollar.
the average is because women “work” less on average, because they are expected to do a lot more unpaid labour like childcare. it’s never been about the actual salary.
Trying to get this right here, you think I should stop pushing for equality because equality hasn’t happened yet?
So, it turns out a society can do multiple things at a time. Even a single person can hold multiple views, crazy, right? Like people can demand equal pay for the same workload and believe in taxation and regulation.
I find it hard to believe anyone is snapping at you about the wage gap unless you’re being ridiculously dense about the whole idea of pay equity… Oh wait.
I’m loving that every single person here is making gigantic assumptions about my positions and personal life.
You’d be the first here to agree that multiple things can be done at once, and that is exactly why I made this post. You’re assuming everyone else agrees with your position. I’ve seen differently. So many people are stuck on one damn thing.
My position, again, is that focusing on the wage gap between men and women is ridiculous because of the far bigger gap between rich and poor. 77 cents on the dollar is nothing compared to what you see between a factory worker and a lawyer. It’s pathetic. Most people in my life (man or woman) couldn’t give two shits about 33 cents difference if they were getting even close to what they deserve.
See this is what the rest of you could have gotten if you didn’t start off with “hurrdurr, this guy must be a misogynist!”, you know, an actual good faith response? And this one wasn’t even that nice!
Yikes.
I didn’t make an assumption, you expressed a belief and implied people snap at you about it. I did the math.
You’re assuming everyone else agrees with your position.
Did you not just tell me not to make assumptions?
It’s weird that you recognize how important it is to fight for your right to a thriving wage without seeing that’s exactly what feminists want.
But, you definitely don’t understand what the wage gap is. It used to be just about women making less in the same positions, but in a lot of countries there’s been legislation to minimize that, which has in fact begun to close the wage gap. So yes, the feminism is working.
A big however, however, is that new studies reveal women, on average, are putting in more effort per dollar because of the additional, emotional and personal management tasks they take on. Not only that, but they are less likely to receive promotions to higher paying positions. So yes, by law(in many places) they must make the same as any man with the same position, but they might have a higher workload with less likelihood to be advanced. This applies to everthing from high paying financial jobs to the lowest paid fast food employees.
I know if I was barely paying rent off flipping burgers with no hope of advancing, my first fight would be to have the same opportunities as men, and the next fight would be against the institutions that profit off unpaid labor.
Feminism hasn’t been about the 70 cents on the dollar thing for a long time. The big thing now is equity for everyone. You should really, actually, read some feminist material because it’s obvious here, and yes that is an assumption, that you haven’t. Bell Hooks is a good start.
Yeah, you’re missing the point. Literally everyone at that level is unable to make a living. Hence why it is pointless to fight to… Oh yeah, be at exactly the same spot you were at before.
It’s wasted energy unless you’re already a rich pos.
No, you missed my point, which is that feminism is about equity in all things and it has made headway, contrary to your point, which I’m not sure you even understand.
People aren’t freaking out. They’re treating you like you said feminism shouldn’t be about the wage gap, because that’s a ridiculous thing to say.
Fighting for the bare minimum needed to survive is not wasted energy.
And logic works exactly that way, there’s like a whole system of logic behind language. There’s epistemology. There’s critical analysis. You should probably read up on logic while you get caught up on feminism.
You clearly have not been paying a bit of attention to any of this. Fuck it, I’m done trying to talk sense into word salad generators.
Add a dictionary to your list, then. It’ll help.
So according to you if you’re on a low wage, sexism doesn’t matter because it’s only a small difference.
If you’re on a high wage, sexism doesn’t matter because you have enough money anyway.
It’s almost like I’m advocating for all people to be paid a living wage or something instead of praying the billionaires give us their scraps! I’m sure they’ll listen this time if we keep turning against each other! :D
Also, I literally said nothing about sexism in general, just wage sexism.
Also, literally yes, nobody needs more than 100,000 a year, at least in my neck of the woods. Medical expenses excluded as we should have nationalized healthcare.
Instead of based on your experience, you should look up stats about the salary gap. This does not only apply to high paying jobs.
^^didn’t read my post. Didn’t say it did bud.
The gender war is a proxy for the only war that ever mattered: the class war.
Preach.
- first of all :
The wage gap is just a way to get us all snapping at each other instead of the rich.
You shouldn’t be snapping at anyone about the wage gap. The wage gap is one of many areas that women have it harder than men, it exists, and there’s nothing to snap about.
If someone is delusional and applying it to a situation it doesn’t apply, then usually that person isl internally just making excuses and if they didn’t latch onto the wage gap, they’d latch onto something else.
the women got paid more, because they took the jobs more seriously and called off less
What you’re describing is not women getting paid more. That’s women working more and getting paid the same amount per amount of effort put in, if not less.
The worst is any talk of high paying jobs, like I’m sorry, but how am I supposed to care if a woman is getting paid multiple thousands of dollars less than her associates when the rest of us can’t pay rent? Oh boohoo, you can’t afford a third car, when I and the woman who makes 50 cents less than me can’t afford rent, food, or medical care.
Boo hoo your fucking self. Oh poor you, you’re the only poor person to ever exist. That totally means it’s ok for you to not have empathy for any human in a slightly different situation then you.
Like Jesus fuck, your goal is not to be poor, but at the same time you don’t think it’s important for the systems governing those who aren’t poor to be, at a baseline, fair? Do you understand how fucking asinine and self defeating that is?
The world is not binary, and nothing is a dichotomy. When people divide things into chunk A and chunk B and put everything into those two chunks they are always wrong. There is still a gradient of wealth and jobs and opportunity and it is still a massive fucking problem that female mid level managers at a company is getting paid less than her male equivalent, even if she has the gall to make $120k a year.
representation still matters, even in ultra wealthy situations. You don’t stop facing misogyny or dealing with it just because your rich, and tolerating it anywhere is sanctioning it everywhere.
Okay, I stopped reading when you assumed that my coworkers weren’t getting raises based on dedication to their jobs.
Just another reactionary feminist. yawn
Hey everyone check out this guy!
He posted a question on a discussion forum, but he’s soooo informed that he can’t even read three paragraphs of the only response before writing it off as “reactionary feminist”, and thus obviously not worth even worth thinking about or considering for a moment.
But can we all please focus back on the real issue: why no feminists will listen to him??
It’S sO. cOnFuSiNg!
🤡🤡🤡
Lmfao bro, I think it’s pretty clear that the only problem is with your social skills.
Yeah, it’s almost I checked out as soon as I realized you don’t want to have a good faith discussion. Funny how that works.
I responded to points you made.
You categorized me as similar to other people you’ve disagreed with in the past, literally stopped reading, and dismissed all the points I made without engaging with them in any way shape or form.
If you’re being sincere about wanting a good fatih discussion, then go outside, give your head a shake, and then come back and engage in discussion of any of the points at hand.
Otherwise, stfu troll.
Sure thing, keyboard warrior. Let me know when you’ve learned not to make assumptions about my life and coworkers.
What exactly did I say write that you took as an assumption about your coworkers?
You implied they weren’t getting raises due to taking their work more seriously, that they were getting paid more by not calling off work.
Either that or you think raises don’t count as getting paid more for the effort they put in, in which I would ask you what you expect to happen, for women to get paid more just by virtue of being women? That would be the exact opposite of equal treatment. The men I worked with often got stuck at or near their pay at hire.
-Claims they deserve to be heard for “reasons” -Immediately stops attempting to listen when they read something they dont like
You are the definition of “not worth it.” And thats why people dont engage with you. Youre a terrible communicator. Its no one else’s job to teach you how to communicate like an adult.
Sorry for the murican reference, but these types of discussions makes me think about the common saying: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_men_are_created_equal
Like, if that was true, there wouldn’t be differences and the need for equity. https://oxford-review.com/the-oxford-review-dei-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-dictionary/equality-vs-equity-definition-and-explanation/
That kind of my point. You can’t lump all women into one thing and say all of them have the same issue. Me and my coworkers have had waaay more in common that they have with your average executive woman.
Are you really in here posting on unpopular opinion and getting upset that your opinion is unpopular?
certainly wealth disparity is a bigger issue. but its bigger than almost anything else and many problems would be tacklable without it.
Downvote because i agree. The only war is class war. Everyone would be better off even with gender pay gaps without a billionaire class.
Fucking thank you. One goddamn sane person in here.
