Many people on lemmy.ml deeply respect and admire authoritarian governments and organizations.

Iran, China, North Korea, Soviet Union…

The West has many flaws. But our flaws are nothing compared to these guys.

Iran hangs homosexuals. Iran shot 30,000 people in less than than 2 weeks. The Soviet Union had to build a fucking Iron wall to prevent people from escaping. The Soviets lied about the Chernobyl nuclear explosion. China censors the internet. China wants to eliminate Islam. North Korea is a totalitarian hellscape. Watching anime is a crime.

Why is lemmy.ml so fascinated with authoritarians?

  • SCmSTR@lemmy.blahaj.zone
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    2 months ago

    Communists are authoritarians because that’s what communism is, like by definition; it’s hard-left but also authoritarian. That’s literally what separates lib-left from auth-left, the same obviously being for lib-right and auth-right (I’m just going off of the standard four-quadrant political compass, which probably has its own deep, foundational issues).

    I have friends who are self proclaimed “tankies”, and talking to them a lot about it, my best understanding of the way they put it is basically:

    You need an Iron Fist® to fix anything, and an Iron Fist® to keep it that way.

    I also think that .ml probably has a percentage of people from those locations, and most people, period, tend to think their way is the best way. Which is also fairly hard to prove because history keeps being altered and destroyed and humans only live for like 60-90 years and we don’t have a very advanced intergenerational memory. Or maybe we do but just don’t know how to learn very well from it when all it seems to scream is “BREED, EAT, SLEEP, STINKY, TRIBE, SCARY, RUN, FIGHT, SAFE, LOVE”. It’s like some people’s own evolutionary biology tells them to prevent others from learning history to establish dominance and power.

    Hard to say whether or not we’ll make it. The solution-path definitely has a lot of construction and destruction.

  • Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    2 months ago

    Why do westerners have zero self awareness or critical thinking? The US has killed more innocent people in the past decade than every country you mentioned combined has in the past 5 decades, spies on our own people and everyone else, has the highest prison population on earth per capita and total, I could go on. If your #1 priority isn’t opposing the US led global order then you have no credibility, simple as.

  • Leviathan@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    2 months ago

    I love communism and I think all these countries’ systems are trash.

    I don’t think you can have communism with a hierarchical, centralized government or authoritarianism.

    I also think the US has systematically undermined or simply overthrown every legitimate attempt to work socialism into communism, leaving only examples that morons can point at as proof that it wouldn’t work.

    So if you see someone defending communism and you think they’re defending those authoritarian regimes, then your problem is you. If you honestly see people saying those regimes are great then they’re probably tankies and you can safely ignore them and disregard this entire comment.

  • Sanctus@anarchist.nexus
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    2 months ago

    They do it for the same reasons you vehemently defend Israel and their genocide of the Palestinians.

  • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    2 months ago

    Lemmy.ml is largely made up of communists, who support the working classes holding state authority, rather than capitalist states where authoritarian control is in the hands of the tiny capitalist class over the working classes. State authority isn’t independent of class struggle, but is a product of it, and as such all states are “authoritarian,” but it’s far better for the working classes to hold that. And for what it’s worth, Iran is supported against the west and Israel, not as a socialist state.

    As for your post body, a number of claims you made are lies.

    Iran shot 30,000 people in less than than 2 weeks.

    Incorrect, the UN estimates ~3100 total deaths. Western press made up the 30,000 figure at the behest of the CIA/Mossad to help foment regime change before their invasion.

    The Soviet Union had to build a fucking Iron wall to prevent people from escaping.

    No? Do you really think a landmass that large would do something like that? There was a wall in Berlin, but that was just as much to keep West Germans out, as the Cold War had tons of spies on both sides.

    China censors the internet.

    Not really a problem, it’s a good thing western spyware like Facebook isn’t allowed, and VPNs are plentiful.

    China wants to eliminate Islam.

    No? China has freedom of religion.

    The West has many flaws. But our flaws are nothing compared to these guys.

    It’s the opposite. Socialist countries have flaws and real problems, but the genocidal western empire is the biggest obstacle holding human progress back. They plunder the global south, are obliterating Palestine, and are all surging to the rightas the empire falls.

  • Mulligrubs@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    edit-2
    2 months ago

    I can’t speak for everyone, but a lot of people have learned to just ignore many reports from international news organizations about anything, since those same organizations routinely repeat the US government’s released data, which has been filtered by international conglomerates with their own interests.

    This is because those claims are often found to be untrue or wildly exaggerated after the dust settles.

    That skepticism is the result of decades of “fake news” leading to a general doubt of any claim as a baseline.

    …and that’s just for starters.

    So, first, you must agree on what the truth is with sources that you can trust. Good luck.

    I’ve read that Iran killed 30,000 people, but can’t read Arabic or know the context of images I have seen, and this could be true, however, given the track record of US media, I would consider the number to be wildly exaggerated just as a matter of course.

    Also, I know that even IF it is true, that Iran has killed 30,000 protestors, the “good guys” can’t stop Iran and “win one for democracy and human civilization” without murdering many magnitudes more.

    Anyway, I want to read about the IRON WALL the USSR built to stop people from escaping, please share

    (not a tankie, and I think Muslims and all other religions should pay the same taxes as everybody else, which they consider to be a wild affront to their dignity)

  • MissJinx@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    2 months ago

    They are carzy over there don’t even try. I once started debating an idea and the answer was “you support american captalism propaganda” These people and just like maga weirdos You can be agains everyone. I don’t have to choose between comunism or captalist.

    common sense is not for everyone

    • village604@adultswim.fan
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      2 months ago

      The mistake you’re making is thinking that criticising other authoritarian regimes means supporting the one you live in.

      It’s not a zero sum game.

      • vagrancyand@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        2 months ago

        No, the mistake I’m making is pretending any person using the word ‘authoritarian’ has thought for two seconds about the word or what it means. Hence why I’m trying to encourage those to think beyond the propaganda and instead actually dive into the philosophy it’s trying to obscure.

        Authoritarianism, also known as ‘any two or more humans living together,’ is a meaningless buzzword invented in the 1940s to try to differentiate American and Fascist societies to get Americans on board with fighting their ideological clones across the Atlantic.

        It has no static definition that meaningfully separates any society from any other society.

        • Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          0
          ·
          2 months ago

          “Authoritarian regimes are actually just regimes, actually!”

          What a stupid take to protect the fascists lol.

          • vagrancyand@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            0
            ·
            2 months ago

            Still not seeing any meaningful difference posted besides your tautological reasoning. All government is inherently authoritarian. That is how government inherently works and is defined. It can’t not be.

            Saying some governments are magically different because they are isn’t anything logical. It’s repeating 1940s era propaganda made exclusively to make Americans feel like they weren’t so bad.

              • vagrancyand@sh.itjust.works
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                0
                ·
                2 months ago

                No, quite the opposite. I would encourage you to learn how to read one day.

                Authortiarianism is a made up concept to separate the American public, who during the 1940s very much wanted to side with Nazi Germany and did not want to enter the war, and the ‘Axis of Evil;’ so that the American Military Industrial complex, against the wishes of its people and despite having the exact same ideology as the average fascist, could enter the war and make one of the largest transfers of wealth from poor to rich in world history happen.

                It has no actual definition that excludes any government. Meaning it’s a meaningless distinction when you cut through the propaganda Nothing an ‘authoritarian government’ has ever been accused of doing is exclusive to them; and by a prima facie reading of the term gives you the difference between lower case a anarchism and actual society – i.e. nothing useful when discussing the merits of ways to run a society, just the fact a society exists.

                Cuba is a democracy. China is a democracy. There’s plenty of propaganda that says otherwise because they do not do their government in English and Americans are the least linguistically capable peoples in the history of the world so it’s difficult for you people to check anything. Because learning spanish is just too difficult. There’s plenty of differences in how those democracies function compared to ‘liberal western democracy’ or US democracy. None of them are more ‘authoritarian’ than the others.

      • ORbituary@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        2 months ago

        It is a valid point, though. Some people don’t even realize they’re in it. Like frogs in a pot of water, they’ve been boiled and are unaware.

        • MagicShel@lemmy.zip
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          0
          ·
          2 months ago

          I think a lot of Americans are under the assumption that post-Trump we just go back to freedomtm. And I hope that’s the case, but I’m skeptical.

          • ORbituary@lemmy.dbzer0.com
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            0
            ·
            2 months ago

            I keep hearing equally unrealistic things that hinge on magical one-off situations. “What if he has a stroke?” or “The Dems will win and it will all change.” It won’t. They’re not going to self-regulate any more than they did in the past.

      • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        2 months ago

        Vanguard partyism

        Might as well just define it as, “Has socialist in the name” at that point.

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            0
            ·
            2 months ago

            The USSR had steady and consistent economic growth, and provided free, high quality education and healthcare, full employment, cheap or free housing, and fantastic infrastructure and city planning that still lasts to this day despite capitalism neglecting it. This rapid development resulted in dramatic democratization of society, reduced disparity, doubling of life expectancy, tripling of functional literacy rates to 99.9%, and much more. Living in the 1930s famine would not have been good, but it was the last major famine outside of wartime because the soviets ended famine in their countries.

            Literacy rates, societal guarantees in the 1936 constitution, reports on the healthcare system over time, and more are good sources for these claims.

            The USSR brought dramatic democratization to society. First-hand accounts from Statesian journalist Anna Louise Strong in her book This Soviet World describe soviet elections and factory councils in action. Statesian Pat Sloan even wrote Soviet Democracy to describe in detail the system the soviets had built for curious Statesians to read about.

            The Kim family does have outsized influence, but the DPRK is not a hereditary monarchy. For example, the position of President, held by Kim Il-Sung, was abolished and split into multiple positions upon his death. This is why he is remembered as the “Eternal President.” As such, both Kim Jong-Il and Kim Jong-Un have held different positions. Both have held high positions, for example Kim Jong-Il had the title of General Secretary of the Worker’s Party of Korea, a position held by Kim Jong-Un presently. However, this is not the whole story.

            The DPRK has a much more distributed level of power, and the Kim family is both widely supported due to its influence, and yet is not the undisputed top-dog, so to speak. What’s more, the Kim family is so venerated precisely because the legacy of Kim Il-Sung and Kim Jong-Il is lived memory, imagine if Lenin had survived and raised his children as successors. It would be no wonder that the soviets would have elected his children, but it would not be a monarchy either.

            Finally, class. Class is not a level of material wealth, but a relation to production and distribution. The DPRK is overwhelmingly publicly owned and planned, administration is not a distinct class in and of itself but a subset of broader classes, same with intellectuals. What determines class is based on that key aspect, the Kim family does not own capital but instead recieves wages from the state. Kim Jong-Un is largely used as a symbol, one that is democratically elected and directly trained by his father for the position.

            This is why it’s important to actually study the real systems at play, rather than coast on pre-formed opinions drilled into us about the DPRK from western media. The Black Panther Party maintained good relations with the DPRK, visiting it and teaching Juche to Americans.

            From Professor Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance:

            The DPRK’s electoral democracy relates primarily to the people’s assemblies, along with local state organs, assemblies, and committees. Every eligible citizen may stand for election, so much so that independent candidates are regularly elected to the people’s assemblies and may even be elected to be the speaker or chair. The history of the DPRK has many such examples. I think here of Ryu Mi Yong (1921–2016), who moved from south to north in 1986 so as to take up her role as chair of the Chondoist Chongu Party (The Party of the Young Friends of the Heavenly Way, formed in 1946). She was elected to the Supreme People’s Assembly and became a member of the Standing Committee (then called the Presidium). Other examples include Gang Ryang Uk, a Presbyterian minister who was a leader of the Korean Christian Federation (a Protestant organisation) and served as vice president of the DPRK from 1972 until his death in 1982, as well as Kim Chang Jun, who was an ordained Methodist minister and became vice-chair of the Supreme People’s Assembly (Ryu 2006, 673). Both Gang and Kim were buried at the Patriots’ Cemetery.

            How do elections to all of the various bodies of governance work? Elections are universal and use secret ballots, and are—notably—direct. To my knowledge, the DPRK is the only socialist country that has implemented direct elections at all levels. Neither the Soviet Union (in its time) nor China have embraced a complete system of direct elections, preferring—and here I speak of China—to have direct elections at the lower levels of the people’s congresses, and indirect elections to the higher levels. As for candidates, it may initially seem as though the DPRK follows the Soviet Union’s approach in having a single candidate for each elected position. This is indeed the case for the final process of voting, but there is also a distinct difference: candidates are selected through a robust process in the Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland. As mentioned earlier, the struggle against Japanese imperialism and liberation of the whole peninsula drew together many organisations, and it is these that came to form the later Democratic Front. The Front was formed on 25 July, 1949 (Kim Il Sung 1949), and today includes the three political parties, and a range of mass organisations from the unions, youth, women, children, agricultural workers, journalism, literature and arts, and Koreans in Japan (Chongryon). Notably, it also includes representation from the Korean Christian Federation (Protestant), Korean Catholic Federation, and the Korean Buddhist Federation. All of these mass organisations make up the Democratic Front, and it is this organisation that proposes candidates. In many respects, this is where the multi-candidate dimension of elections comes to the fore. Here candidates are nominated for consideration from all of the mass organisations represented. Their suitability and merit for the potential nomination is debated and discussed at many mass meetings, and only then is the final candidate nominated for elections to the SPA. Now we can see why candidates from the Chondoist movement, as well as from the Christian churches, have been and can be elected to the SPA and indeed the local assemblies.

            To sum up the electoral process, we may see it in terms of a dialectical both-and: multi-candidate elections take place in the Democratic Front, which engages in extensive consideration of suitable candidates; single candidate elections take place for the people’s assemblies. It goes without saying that in a non-antagonistic system of class and group interaction, the criterion for election is merit and political suitability

            As for the bodies of governance, there is a similar continuity and discontinuity compared with other socialist countries. Unlike the Soviet Union, there is a unicameral Supreme People’s Assembly, which is the highest authority in terms of laws, regulations, the constitution, and all leadership roles. The SPA is also responsible for the national economic plan, the country’s budget, and foreign policy directions (Han 2016, 47–48). At the same time, the Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland has an analogous function to a second organ of governance. This is a uniquely Korean approach to the question of a second organ of governance. While not an organ of governance as such, it plays a direct role in electoral democracy (see above), as well as the all-important manifestation of consultative democracy (see below). A further reason for this unique role of the Democratic Front may be adduced: while the Soviet Union and China see the second body or organ as representative of all minority nationalities and relevant groups, the absence of minority nationalities in a much smaller Korea means that such a form of representation is not needed.

            The form of democracy and the mode of production in China ensures that there is a connection between the people and the state. Policies like the mass line are in place to ensure this direct connection remains. This is why over 90% of the Chinese population supports the government, and why they have such strong perceptions around democracy:

            The Chinese political system is based on whole-process people’s democracy, a form of consultative democracy. The local government is directly elected, and then these governments elect people to higher rungs, meaning any candidate at the top level must have worked their way up from the bottom and directly proved themselves. Combining this consultative, ground-up democracy with top-down economic planning is the key to China’s success.

            I highly recommend Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance. Socialist democracy has been imperfect, but has gone through a number of changes and adaptations over the years as we’ve learned more from testing theory to practice. Boer goes over the history behind socialist democracy in this textbook.

      • Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        2 months ago

        The US has literally never been a democracy, its never even been a particularly good representative republic, read a fucking book