Its always good to try!
I remember the GrapheneOS team saying that they won’t bring their OS to Fairphone, because the Fairphones don’t bring hardware support for security measures the GrapheneOS team doesn’t want to compromise on.
Definitely feels like a supply chain issue on parts for Fairphone to have this position. Hopefully Fairphone, GrapheneOS, and hardware venders can work this out on a later model.
Take anything the lead dev of GrapheneOS says with a grain of salt. He’s a little… Um, special.
While his perceptions of other people’s motives and meanings may be suspect, his technical analysis seems pretty spot on.
Honestly if I had to deal with degooglers and Linux fanboys as much as he did I’d probably go batshit insane. Kudos to him
His technical chops are without question. However he has been so over the top obnoxious to MANY other leaders in the privacy space. He really hurts his own cause by refusing to acknowledge there are other threat models that can be solved with other answers.
Let’s call a spade a spade: He is a raging asshole with severe clinical paranoia. I’m literally certain that if he saw this post he’d accuse me of being a shill for calyxos and to never fucking again interact with any grapheneos account. Both have happened to me before (Hence I refuse to ever interact with his troupe again, even though I use graphene and agree with the vast majority of its technical decisions; I have also stopped actively recommending it to anyone, the social media experience is simply way too attrocious).
I wasn’t going to go THAT far . . . but I can’t disagree with a word you wrote. Take my upvote.
So just to verify you still use it because you realize and know its the most secure option.
Idk maybe our threat models are different but I could care less if someone is an asshole or a paranoid schizophrenic - as long as I am having the most private and security conscious user experience available then who cares?
You could still recommend it, since you already seem to know it is the most secure or else you most likely would have switched by now, but just explain that the social media side of it can be disheartening.
I will say, I’ve never had a single problem in any of the GOS forum pages on there website. Not a single one.
I cannot, in good conscience, recommend a project with a lead that is as verbally abusive and utterly unable to appreciate even highly constructive criticism as Micay, technical merits notwithstanding. I am fine when others recommend it though.
He stepped down as lead in 2023 but I do think he is still one of the directors or something like that. He doesn’t use social media anymore either because most people feel like you did about it and he was a dick I’ll admit that.
But man small price to pay for the most proven security on phones in my opinion.
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One might argue it would be more difficult to do if you’re not a little paranoid.
Samsung, no. Samsung can’t be trusted with anything. That would be like using Tor on Android.
Plus Odin is a pain to work with as you have to rely on leaked tools (Odin3 for Windows and Odin4 for Linux) to do anything official.
Ya. Short term Motorola for Graphene, long term any that support postmarketos
It 👏 should 👏 be 👏 the 👏 law 👏 .
I don’t know how they managed to sneak locking a system to a single boot loader. And what about Qualcomm chips? They have a hypervisor OS, you say? A small operating system that can read all your memory? Updated as firmware?
Great, forcibly open source that system as well and tell them once and for all that they can fuck off. No, you don’t get to control another persons property - you disgusting goblin.
Either that, or ban the sale of such devices permanently across Europe.
That too! I covered that in another of my recent posts on the Europe community on here
That is a big thing Europe can at least make happen and in Asian/African/Latin countries too.
I like your addition though that is all facts!! Let’s keep pushing countries to make that happen.
To make them undo what Google is trying to do currently and what Apple does for long time to have all those devices be fully changeable for the OS
Needs to become a movement everywhere!!! Just as StooKillingGames, and the KeepAndroidOpen movements
We need a catchy name for it
Can you give me some reading on this? I am happy to make noise about an issue once I understand it.
There’s a lot of writing and history behind open source, open firmware and even open hardware, but the BIGGEST thing you can focus on is the transition from PCs to smartphones around the 2000s.
We went from you installing whatever boot loader and operating system that could run on your device, to a locked down boot loader that would only load the vendors operating system.
They hide behind security through obscurity, but it’s been debunked. The boot loader and even firmwares of devices have in certain cases been found to be gushing gashes of CVEs and bad coding - but only through decompilation and reverse engineering. In fact, after the 5 year warranty of your device is up, you should consider the security of your device highly suspect.
The true purpose for an exclusive locked down boot loader is to maintain operating system monopoly, force uninstallable apps/services on a user, to then be able to track & canvas the user to sell on the data brokerage market - not to mention planned obsolescence, because if you can’t freely modify and update your firmware and/or boatloader, you could secure it for more than 5 years.
For a more balanced take and to see “both sides”, read this
Other than that, the LibreBoot mailing list will help you to unearth the hypocrisy and lies fed to us by hardware vendors.
Free the firmware, free the bootloader, free the operating system, free the drivers, free the software - and then the user can decide wether or not they want to run commercial software on top of all this.
Anything else is subservience.
Thanks for this, I am interested in the philosophy around FOSS, I am tech illiterate basically and like foss because I trust it more than US tech.
Fairphone has their own with /e/OS
I owned a fairphone with e/os but what murena does feels a bit overbearing so i would be really happy about more support for other choices (also im planning/hoping to use the old phone as a small server after putting some linux on it and removing the unneccesarry hardware after setup wich would be greatly helped with proper support)
So yes: they have their own
But: options
I’m posting this reply from FP6 /e/OS. I have no complaints. I think experience can vary depending on the apps ecosystem that one is part of.
Same and well, government & banking apps dont work. And there are sometimes other quirks with apps, so its not painless, but for the most part it’s okay.
The idea that the Major Software Enshittificator which is Samsung would ever go along with this is incredibly naive.
Samsung was one of the first to fill their smartphones and tables with tons of useless “Samsung” software that can’t be removed by normal means, and even people who had their older and less insanely stuffed with junk devices got them forcefully filled with that crap via updates (making their older devices unusable, “incentivizing” them to get new ones).
Samsung hasn’t been consumer friendly for at least a decade.
When smartphones became a thing, everyone had Samsungs. I played around on a classmate’s Samsung Galaxy Whateverthefuck (might’ve been a Gio or a Y) and in addition to the hardware itself being shit because it was a low-end device in like 2010 or 2011, the software was HORRIBLE. So I vowed never to buy a Samsung and I still haven’t. Maybe their software got good, maybe it didn’t… But my first smartphone was an Xperia and the one after that was the second-gen Moto G. Quite stock-like Android and that’s what I’ve preferred since (though I’m now on iOS, but that’s a different story)
OEM’s
Or just OEMs, even.
The short term is forked android. The long term is a Linux distribution, new or otherwise. It doesn’t seem reasonable to assume that the proprietary blobs in Android will get reverse engineered.
The Free Software Foundation is actively working on this (reverse-engineering Android proprietary blobs, see Librephone project). It hasn’t even been a year yet since they began, but I’m rooting for them.
That will definitely be the focus. If Europe people can mandate making Android and Apple Ecosystems be opened to having real GNU/Linux or anything else they want to be able to be put on it then that would make huge changes to getting that to happen
Fairphone and samsung are absolutely not the same kind. I want to point fairphone is officially distributing /e/OS which is a niche of 2-3 brands. This company that is nowhere in size close to samsung also engages hardcore in device repairability making its phones be a flagship. If anything just let them be successful and tempt others to follow their lead. I would love graphene os to be better supported but just don’t put all the strain on the one doing good. (I type this from my FP6 /e/OS)
@furtiveParalysis @viov Fairphone should start the “fairness” that I can reinstall its OS like of a PC. It does not do that, IT IS CLOSED HARDWARE LIKE A SAMSUNG, so do not buy it!!!
There there, go buy one when you next need.
(links are in french but you surely haven’t searched at all before spreading hate in capital letters)
to Install e/OS/: https://forum.fairphone.com/t/a-safe-guide-to-install-e-os-on-your-fairphone/128019
to install android: https://support.fairphone.com/hc/en-us/articles/18896094650513-How-to-manually-install-Android-on-your-Fairphone
Unlock the bootloader https://www.fairphone.com/fr/bootloader-unlocking-code-for-fairphone
I’m in the embedded market and have kept my first FP3 8 years it was pretty outdated technically but its fairness is intact (in fact it’s still in use).
It is not a FOSS hardware indeed, it isn’t like a samsung either, it is I think the top of the game among existing consumer solutions.
@furtiveParalysis I summarize your answer: “Yes it is closed hardware, you badass linux guy. Here can you crack it, like of a f…ing samsung: <link>”
You are a badass linux guy mate. Although a bit hater than solution oriented
@furtiveParalysis Why don’t you simply admit, it is not fair at all, it is only a marketing trash? It is the same like a samsung. Or motorola.
Fairphone? perhaps. Samsung? hell naw. Samsung heavily benefits from the spyware it builds into One UI and 99% of its user base do not care about the spyware.
But I do hope hope that Fairphone begins to embrace Linux support.Samsung heavily benefits from the spyware it builds into One UI and 99% of its user base do not care about the spyware.
They go out of their way to ensure that it cannot be disabled even if you do care about the spyware and try to uninstall or disable it.
Per GOS: Samsung has almost all hardware requirements to support GOS except… they purposely cripple their device upon installation of a third party OS. One can only suspect they indeed make money with their spyware stack!
What is the bottleneck holding Fairphone back from supporting Linux fully?
@viov @pineapple That they are not fair et all. A really fair phone should start at that you can install its OS from a pendrive. Fairphone is a big f.g lie.
Qualcomm
Has anyone heard word if Moto is still planning on rolling out flagship phones with e/OS by 2027 still?
I heard Graphene. They’re doing e/OS as well?
I thought it was e/OS but you’re probably right.
Just double checked you’re right it is graphene their going with
Hope not fuck e/OS
I know very little about e/OS. TL;DR on the hate for them?
I mean both could exist.
I prefer graphene as well but e/OS could still improve and surprise us all in the future
That could be true if e/os actually cared about privacy and security
I’m not buying another phone until there’s one with no Android in it that appeals to my needs.
It would be nice to buy a phone that officially support GrapheneOS. I dont want to thinker with phones. I can image it is going to be the same experience as going from Windows to Linux. Things would actually work in a good way as a user wants to instead of locked down requirements.
GrapheneOS has partnered with Motorola and were supposed to see phones that come with GOS sometime in 2027
It’s pretty funny that out of all the manufacturers Graphene doesn’t find acceptable, they went with Motorola in the end lmao. Were Nokia and Ericsson not available?
I wonder if that’s influenced by inventory control industry. Motorola/Zebra has been in that industry in a way that Samsung/apple/LG hasn’t been and they run Android now almost by default. I’ve used some older windows ce devices and modern ones are using Android, having more control over the device would be a huge advantage for those devices.
Next time you see someone doing inventory/receiving try and get a look at what devices they are using.
Hardware should be software agnostic
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That’s borderline with the purity fallacy: that one should not deserve privacy and security because of one or more bad practice.
I believe not so many people give away “everything”, and many more probably don’t realize how much they give.
There are many reasons one would keep a FB account, or a Google account around. That does not mean that person abandoned all rights on privacy and even less on security.
And how would you recommend a soft transition if you’re in a all-or-nothing approach? One day on Google, FB, what’s not, and in an instant: new device, new OS, drop everything at once? Nearly no one will do that.
The reason GOS does not support more devices is not because of where other brands vs privacy and security, it’s a pure hardware requirements they don’t meet. If the Motorola devices are a commercial success, most likely other phone makers will be interested.
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And the other way, too. The whole reason why Android chose Java was because it was, at the time, one of the better languages and runtimes for creating hardware-agnostic software. Now that a software ecosystem is in place, why should Google be able to control what hardware the already-written software runs on?
@GamingChairModel @Glitch How about formulating meaningful content? Your question is bullshit!
That’s not how hardware works, like at all. I agree with the spirit of what you’re asking for but you can’t just wave a magic wand and put any software on any hardware.
The problem is that even if somebody out there is willing to go to the work of making device drives, bootloaders and OS releases for the hardware, it still can’t happen because the information about how to talk to the hardware isn’t open, same thing for the bootloader and even if those things are reverse engineered often even the ability to install an OS there is locked down on the hardware.
As you correctly say, the dream of any software just running anywhere isn’t possible because that’s not how hardware works, but the current situation is not one were what’s blocking it isn’t just the natural architectural structure of hardware, it’s one where the hardware makers have purposefully and to quite an extreme level locked down their hardware so that even if people are willing to do the work of doing what it takes to run an OS there, they can’t because necessary info to use the hardware isn’t available and the hardware is even locked down against OS installations for those who don’t have the necessary cryptographic keys.
Very true. Covered that in my post on Europe
Exactly. This was less important before the internet got ubiquitous, but nowadays, when manufacturers can screw you remotely, it’s very important.
This kind of vertical integration, where a single entity controls both hardware and software shouldn’t exist.
EU petition?
