So if your family lived next to a warehouse and I burned it down and it spread to the neighborhood your family lived in and they lost their house and maybe lives, even though I physically started the fire I would get a pass from you?
No, I would be even more devastated than I am now, because in addition to my planet, country, town, and general environment, my family is also harmed by the war going on around me.
These people are taking up arms against those trading on them, and war is messy. You can blame the combatant for the specific harms he causes like you are in this case, but that is very philosophically close to blaming a bullet for a murder rather than the shooter. The combatant does have agency and culpability of his own, but not in the broader context of the combat he is in. In that context, those that created that scenario are the “shooters” and the individual actors are the “bullets”.
I’m not mad at the North Korean soldier that killed my great uncle nearly as much as I am at the North Korean leadership and their enablers, and my own government, who together made that situation the hell that it was.
That’s a real slippery slope. If you go back through history you’re essentially saying Israel’s current genocide is just a product of the oppression they’ve faced from multiple civilizations/countries (e.g. Egypt, Rome, Germany, etc.)
Based on your logic, what Israel is doing is bad, but really we shouldn’t be mad at them. We should be mad at their oppressors.
Except for violence being involved, your example is not materially similar, though. Most of the oppression of ethnic Jews you’re referring to predates Israel’s existence, and certainly the existence of almost all present-day Israelis. Israel is playing the role of aggressor at this time in history; they did not suffer the oppression of their ancestors, and it was not perpetrated by any of the people they are fighting today.
In the scenario I’ve described and those like it, there is a conflict between people that feel oppressed and those they feel are oppressing them–right now. It is not about revenge or settling an old slight, but about getting their current material conditions improved, as is clear from the fact that such a demand was made during the video from this terrible incident.
What about slavery in the US? Are black Americans not still suffering from the effects of slavery generations past even though they’re not actively enslaved today?
You can’t ignore the bigger picture. The contention between Jewish and Arab people has never ended. It has only evolved. WWI ended only 100 years ago (Oppression by Ottomans). Holocaust survivors are still alive and many living in Israel. They also experienced the Arab Israeli war and other aggression from surrounding Arab countries.
When does an oppressed group stop being oppressed? They can both be oppressed and do bad things.
I’m not ignoring the bigger picture at all. I know that the conflicts and oppression of today often have historical context, but that context does not equal justification.
It boils down to this difference:
Your ancestors oppressed my ancestors.
You are oppressing me.
The historical events did lead to the current events, and, you can draw a direct causal line between the historical oppression and today’s, but those events were perpetrated by dead people against other dead people. The reason that, for example, black Americans have justified grievance, is because it is still ongoing and their conditions are still impacted. If the black American community today was fully repaired from those historical events, they would have no grievance, but we all know that didn’t happen, which is why they’re still justifiably up in arms about it.
Yes, because I would have the solidarity enough to not blame you for fighting back against the oppression of the owning class.
The owning class is to blame, not the people fighting back against their own oppression.
Thousands of people die every day due to the actions of the owning class. Yet they get a pass because “it’s just business”.
This is class war. Fighting back inherently comes with risks. Misfortune happens. But having class consciousness let’s you understand where to place the blame.
No, I blame Israel entirely, because what they are doing now has nothing to do with the oppression the Jewish people have faced in the past. They are not fighting back against oppression. They are actively being the oppressors. It is a clear and distinct difference.
Also, it is entirely disingenuous to conflate the Israeli state with the Jewish people. Stop that Zionist bullshit
Not sure how you can say that. The Ottoman Empire and British Mandate Palestine are directly related to regions that are currently Israel and contained Jewish people who had been oppressed in that area and who were being oppressed in other places like Germany and had migrated there.
The point being that you can’t excuse violence that affects innocent people just because they are part of an oppressed group.
So if your family lived next to a warehouse and I burned it down and it spread to the neighborhood your family lived in and they lost their house and maybe lives, even though I physically started the fire I would get a pass from you?
No, I would be even more devastated than I am now, because in addition to my planet, country, town, and general environment, my family is also harmed by the war going on around me.
These people are taking up arms against those trading on them, and war is messy. You can blame the combatant for the specific harms he causes like you are in this case, but that is very philosophically close to blaming a bullet for a murder rather than the shooter. The combatant does have agency and culpability of his own, but not in the broader context of the combat he is in. In that context, those that created that scenario are the “shooters” and the individual actors are the “bullets”.
I’m not mad at the North Korean soldier that killed my great uncle nearly as much as I am at the North Korean leadership and their enablers, and my own government, who together made that situation the hell that it was.
That’s a real slippery slope. If you go back through history you’re essentially saying Israel’s current genocide is just a product of the oppression they’ve faced from multiple civilizations/countries (e.g. Egypt, Rome, Germany, etc.)
Based on your logic, what Israel is doing is bad, but really we shouldn’t be mad at them. We should be mad at their oppressors.
Except for violence being involved, your example is not materially similar, though. Most of the oppression of ethnic Jews you’re referring to predates Israel’s existence, and certainly the existence of almost all present-day Israelis. Israel is playing the role of aggressor at this time in history; they did not suffer the oppression of their ancestors, and it was not perpetrated by any of the people they are fighting today.
In the scenario I’ve described and those like it, there is a conflict between people that feel oppressed and those they feel are oppressing them–right now. It is not about revenge or settling an old slight, but about getting their current material conditions improved, as is clear from the fact that such a demand was made during the video from this terrible incident.
What about slavery in the US? Are black Americans not still suffering from the effects of slavery generations past even though they’re not actively enslaved today?
You can’t ignore the bigger picture. The contention between Jewish and Arab people has never ended. It has only evolved. WWI ended only 100 years ago (Oppression by Ottomans). Holocaust survivors are still alive and many living in Israel. They also experienced the Arab Israeli war and other aggression from surrounding Arab countries.
When does an oppressed group stop being oppressed? They can both be oppressed and do bad things.
I’m not ignoring the bigger picture at all. I know that the conflicts and oppression of today often have historical context, but that context does not equal justification.
It boils down to this difference:
The historical events did lead to the current events, and, you can draw a direct causal line between the historical oppression and today’s, but those events were perpetrated by dead people against other dead people. The reason that, for example, black Americans have justified grievance, is because it is still ongoing and their conditions are still impacted. If the black American community today was fully repaired from those historical events, they would have no grievance, but we all know that didn’t happen, which is why they’re still justifiably up in arms about it.
Yes, because I would have the solidarity enough to not blame you for fighting back against the oppression of the owning class.
The owning class is to blame, not the people fighting back against their own oppression.
Thousands of people die every day due to the actions of the owning class. Yet they get a pass because “it’s just business”.
This is class war. Fighting back inherently comes with risks. Misfortune happens. But having class consciousness let’s you understand where to place the blame.
Ok so then you don’t blame Israel for their genocide because of the oppression they’ve faced throughout history?
No, I blame Israel entirely, because what they are doing now has nothing to do with the oppression the Jewish people have faced in the past. They are not fighting back against oppression. They are actively being the oppressors. It is a clear and distinct difference.
Also, it is entirely disingenuous to conflate the Israeli state with the Jewish people. Stop that Zionist bullshit
Not sure how you can say that. The Ottoman Empire and British Mandate Palestine are directly related to regions that are currently Israel and contained Jewish people who had been oppressed in that area and who were being oppressed in other places like Germany and had migrated there.
The point being that you can’t excuse violence that affects innocent people just because they are part of an oppressed group.
Cool, so now you’re just going to spit Zionst propaganda.
I’ll not argue with someone who wants to conflate directly committing oppression on others as being the same as defending against being oppressed.
Get bent and get blocked.
Israel can be oppressed AND do bad things.