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Everyone uses roads, regardless of their personal existence on them. The entire economy is dependent on roads from the smallest momnpop shop to the largest global conglomerate. Shipping is its life’s blood
This is a big deal that we should pay more attention to. It’s holding back adoption of transit, bike lanes, and EVs
Too many people believe their gas taxes pay for road maintenance. That it’s targeted toward roads and that it covers roads. Too often they react in outrage at concepts like
- EVs aren’t paying their fair share
- it’s not supposed to pay for transit
- let bicyclists pay for their own roads
The reality is that gas taxes are not usually targeted, it’s already not fair with the variety of weight and efficiency of vehicles, and in the US it typically covers more like half of road maintenance so it’s still highly dependent on other funding sources
Maybe it’s time to rethink this tax, to something without the emotional baggage, that’s fair for everyone, and that adequately funds all transportation needs
And? Public transit (that often also uses those roads) is not wholly funded by fairs collected but paid for by everyone if they use it or not as well(a normal thing). I just don’t get why tax funding infrastructure is now seen as bad, is this some weird pcyop to have rich people pay less tax again?
As it should be. Same as you pay for schools if you have no kids.
Even if you don’t drive, you still eat because of roads. No food delivery to supermarkets without roads. Same for all other goods and services.
I think what this is pushing back against is the idea that roads are built for motorists because motorists “pay” for the roads. Entitled people in cars getting pissed at pedestrians and cyclists because they “don’t pay” for “their roads”. As someone who rides their bike most places I’ve experienced this first hand as well as online discourse.
Those people are extra stupid
Aother interesting thing about roads is that they’re build to withstand the wear and tear from heavy vehicles.
This doesn’t seem interesting, until you also find out that the wear from all other vehicles is completely and utterly negligible. Doesn’t matter if you ride a bike, a motorcycle, car, electric car, pickup or SUV. None of the personal vehicles make a dent on the roads of any meaningful size, even if they make up a majority of the traffic.
Obviously we still need the roads for small vehicles, but the cost of constant maintenance all comes from cargo and busses.
If you see it this way, then almost all road construction is a hidden subsidy for the cargo industry who uses trucks instead rails or boats.
It would make a lot of economic sense for the society as a whole to demand fewer cargo trucks and more cargo rails.
I don’t think most of the wear and tear on roads actually comes from the weight of vehicles driving on it, though.
In most places where I’ve lived, the cracks and potholes are caused by the shifting of the ground underneath, freeze/thaw cycles of water/precipitation, and things like that. Most roads would still require maintenance to keep them driveable, even without vehicles driving over them.
It becomes obvious with dedicated bike trails or protected bike lanes, where motor vehicles simply do not have access to those stretches of pavement, where potholes can still form over time.
Huge heavy SUVs and large trucks absolutely do cause wear and tear, and EVs are especially heavy. The surface layers of roads are damaged over time by vehicles if the foundation of the road mostly remains unimpacted.
The weight of a heavy electric Hummer is 4.5 metric tonnes.
The maximum allowed weight of a fully loaded cargo truck is 44 metric tonnes.
According to the fourth power law, this would make the impact of the truck more than 500 000 that of the Hummer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law
Sure, the Hummer itself is already 16 times worse than a regular 1 ton car, but in the scale of things, the difference between any personal vehicle and a truck is about the same as whatever the truck is.
The fourth power law applies to weight per axle, assuming identical axles/tires. In reality, the typical tandem axle arrangement on big trucks (18 wheels across 5 axles, the four back axles paired together as tandems) spreads the load over a much larger road surface area than a typical 4-wheel passenger vehicle.
Also, the models themselves aren’t that robust. It’s from a single comprehensive study of loaded trucks, from 1958-1960, that has been very influential, but the tests itself never went down to passenger car weight.
Civil engineers have models and formulas for that, and there is indeed much more road deformation from the heavy trucks, but it’s probably closer to thousands of times the load for an 18-wheel tractor trailer than for a passenger vehicle, not 500,000. Note in that analysis, it talks about which power to use (not always 4) for different types of road wear or damage, and many of them are less sensitive or more sensitive to vehicle load.
It’s all interesting stuff, but I worry that people on the internet have put way too much value on the fourth power law here, stretching it beyond the original scope or overstating its applicability to practical road design issues.
While big cars do more damage than small cars or a bike. It’s seriously negligable compared to any sort of goods transport vehicle
Infrastructures are expensive. Startegic ones must be owend and maintained by all the people for the people, regardless individual usage, since being strategic have impact in every individual.
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Nah, I’m good on not paying for wars of aggression
Holy straw man
This very much depends on the country.
Maybe properly taxes go in part to fund local roads (mine do) and maybe some people paying these don’t have a car. But even people who don’t have cars do have garbage trucks that pick up their trash, mail delivery vans delivering their mail and packages, emergency vehicles that might need to come to the residence, delivery trucks that bring the food to the local supermart, and public transport buses that need to access parts of the community.
People indirectly use roads even if they don’t have a car.
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As bad as the roads out here are, it always irks me that they charge a road & bridge fee on my taxes but my roads still suck
Well, things that suck also cost money
I know. Thats why I call those fees my assessor’s escalade fund
“… regardless of whether they drive or not.”
Even if they don’t drive, they benefit from roads and highways. Trucks bring food to stores, along with all the other products. Unless they are living off the grid, growing their own food, and weaving their own cloth, they’re dependent on the roads. Also, emergency services and maintenance crews need the roads.
Many people long for a simple life, until they break a leg, or their appendix bursts, or they have an infected tooth. Then they’re more than happy to take the road to the hospital.
There’s no dichotomy of “roads or no roads”. Individuals driving necessitates wider and more extensive roads. People who choose to drive when they otherwise don’t have to have the effect of making everything farther away and making road maintenance considerably more expensive.
And your point?
Historically, roads were built for transporting goods, and this started long before cars existed as a concept, see Rome, the Silk Road, etc.
Even in the US the road infrastructure push was driven by the need to transport goods with trucks. Early days of the conversation were around this. It wasn’t until cars started becoming affordable for the average person (rather than the wealthy elites) that cars were even a consideration.
Even today the infrastructure is designed around trucks - bridge heights, durability, etc, cars are secondary.
You can stop driving cars all you want (which simply isn’t going to happen) but you’d still have trucks, because trucks on roads are flexible and trains are not.
And this is why I support cyclists and pedestrians having as much right to roadways as a person that chooses to drive their car.
I’ve never heard anyone claim that only drivers pay for roads.
Now you have content for tomorrow’s “the idea that X is Y is actually a myth…” post
Many people think registration and gas taxes cover roadway expenses. Its why you see people complain “cyclists don’t pay their fair share for bike lanes”.
As a cyclist I have, many times. And always from people that feel bicycles shouldn’t be on roads when they are
Ya, mostly just them throwing a hissy fit whenever a city wants to build any infrastructure for non-cars
Just like people without kids pay for schools through the same mechanisms
YSK that this varies significantly from country to country and jurisdiction to jurisdiction, so stating this without identifying the specific area to which it pertains is misleading.
Does it? In which countries do drivers pay for the roads exclusively?
Toll roads?
Which country has strictly toll roads?
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Principality of Sealand?
