- cross-posted to:
- gaming@lemmy.zip
- cross-posted to:
- gaming@lemmy.zip
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Lately steam sales have sucked; paying 40+ bucks for 2-5 year old games feels silly. So yeah, I’m with Gabe on this one. There are choices.
I hate to agree with a billionaire, but he’s right. Currently steam is not a monopoly at all, and hasn’t yet gotten so dominant that it amounts to one.
But they are the single most dominant outlet, and are in the first stages of having an ability to control the entire market in unfair ways to the point of crushing competition. It won’t be long before they do have that ability completely. And we can’t just trust the billionaire because he’s shown an unusual degree of user focused choices overall. Even if he’s perfect, he ain’t immortal, and as soon as he’s not in control, there will be fuckery
as soon as he’s not in control, there will be fuckery
This is what I don’t think a lot of people will be prepared for …
I dread if there’s gonna some useless MBA coming around afterwards and saying some shit like: “why don’t we charge steam users $9.99 to play their games per month?” and start cutting projects that benefit gamers to “save money” – who needs Proton? who needs to invest in things like couch co-op? Then give themselves a shitload of money in exchange for all the goodwill that Valve have built up over the years.
Oh no. Most of us are pretty much expecting the apocalypse whenever Gaben is gone.
I really hope Linux will get a bigger market share, thanks to Steam devices, before Steam has to change CEOs and starts the inevitable enshitification.
Because for Linux gaming, Steam’s support for Proton is pretty much a monopol.
Most of 3rd party launchers for other stores also rely on Proton under the hood, IIRC.
Nobody stops EGS to implement Proton. Neither ActiBlizz, Ubisoft or EAs Origin.
The “monopoly” in this case is again just other stores not wanting to do what gamers want. Proton is FOSS and anyone can use it.
Yep. This is how it goes downhill.
Some business analyst will make a pretty chart showing a massive revenue increase Vs some minor player attrition caused by the monthly subscription model, and the board will salivate at all those billions they’re gonna get.
Is that revenue necessary? Not at all. But capitalism says you must maximise profits regardless for the sake of it, and without an all powerful overlord to say otherwise, it will be a tragic downfall.
But Valve is not a public company, so you don’t get randos. Gabe is very aware of this fact himself.
Yeah, since Valve is not public the odds of the next head being an outside hire or some loud tech exec are extremely low.
GabeN is most likely to pick someone who’s been around with the company since the early days, like Erik Johnson or Scott Lynch.
If he wants it to stay in the family, his own son Gray could take over, he’s also a game dev.
Gabe has often expressed distrust of publicly traded markets, a plausible outcome is that his ownership gets converted into an employee-owned trust or a collective buyback, this would effectively permanently lock Valve into its current profile, distributing profils back into salaries and bonuses for the staff.
Yes but it’s not a certenty
How would you want it to be certain?
I’m ready for it, I “backed up” my steam library because of it. The whole movement these last few months against steam make me think the industry is coordinating against it because steam won’t play ball.
Billionaires shouldn’t exist.
Does anyone have a link to the “internal communications” mentioned in the article showing Valve employees enforcing the unwritten rule? Seems foundational to the whole issue, I’d like to read them for myself.
Also:
… but a big challenge Epic Games faces is simply that an awful lot of gamers don’t seem to want an effective Steam competitor: Steam rules the roost, and they like it that way.
The article mentions that the Epic Games GUI isn’t great, and I think Steam’s monopoly (It is, for sure, a monopoly) is backed up in part by the fact that they’ve had the time required to develop a decent interface that at this point, not many people are too itching to leave. With software everywhere enshittifying Steam keeps looking better in comparison, and I think that challengers need to at least focus on building out a comfortable trustworthy GUI before there’s a serious argument for dethroning Steam.
How many years did it take for Epic to implement a shopping cart in their store?
GUI is definitely a big reason, but features as well. Epic could make their store snappy as hell and their GUI easier to use, but that doesn’t give us controller remapping, game recording, an overlay with a web browser, per game notes, per game news, community guides, baked in mod support, performance data overlay, controller centric mode (big screen mode), and god knows theres more I’m missing.
Personally, I’d put my money on GOG becoming the real competitor over time. GoG Galaxy feels absolutely better than Epic does, and the fact it integrates other storefronts is such a major benefit that it makes it at least capable of competing with steam in the long haul. If GoG Galaxy gained all the features Playnite has, it would easily be able to compete with Steam.
Steam’s “monopoly” is purely because none of their competitors bother with pro consumer updates.
GOG is absolutely tiny. It was sold by CD Projekt to one of the store’s founders for a mere $25 million last year:
https://screenrant.com/gog-sold-cd-projeckt-red-new-owner/
I know several family-owned businesses in my small town (that nobody outside of very specialized industries has ever heard of), which are worth significantly more each.
Profits were just $1.2 million in 2022:
Again, absolute peanuts compared to other online storefronts.
While the site does provide a highly valuable service, it’s far too small, too little known and has been so for such a long time that I doubt it can grow significantly in the foreseeable future.
Part of Epic’s problem is also their leadership pretty publicly showing they hate their potential customers on a regular and ongoing basis. If someone keeps screaming at me to eat shit and die, I’m not going to be particularly motivated to buy anything from them.
As far as GoG, they are actually my preferred storefront. I look at GoG for games before Steam, and am even willing to pay a slight premium to get them on GoG. Their DRM free stuff is a big thing for me. Being able to archive my games has value to me.
Steam is the superior platform and you they can’t compete with a company that gives consumers so much value, so they’re gonna claim monopoly, which is ironic because they don’t breakup actual monopolies, so why should they fuck over something that isn’t a monopoly? Oh right, because antitrust is a tool for companies to attack competition, not to avoid the consumer hellscape of monopolies.
Offer more value to gain market share. If you can’t, I guess your business model is worse than Yoru competitors, isn’t it?
My wonder is who is this benefiting? Is this a bid to get gaming under stricter control by destroying its main outlet for many?
Given video games place in the PC realm and the aggressive push for AI powered cloud compute, it they fuck up steam to disincentivize personal PCs, I wouldn’t be surprised. Been a few propaganda prices about Gabe/steam in the last couple weeks. Something is up.
Realistically, Steam is a monopoly.
That’s not illegal. In fact, it’s not even (necessarily) a problem.
If they misuse their monopoly position, then it becomes a problem.
Absolutely. If steam was pulling 1/10th of the stuff Google and Apple does on their marketplaces, that would be a problem.
The reason Steam is dominant is its better than the others. So long as publishers are unwilling to pass the lower cost of the platform into consumers, there is no incentive to change.
Also, Steam is the only platform that gives regional discounts in many regions. Its the main reason I don’t use GOG as much as I would like to.
Yeah. GoG used to have regional pricing, but they weren’t able to keep up with the costs of it and had to stop or go under.
My understanding is that it is still the publishers decision like with Steam. But I get the Idea, that Steam strongly encourages it.
The legality is not very interesting imo. Monopoly law has been absolutely gutted by Reagan, and weakened by every single (yes, every single) administration since.
The question of whether having a monopoly position and not abusing it is something we as a society should do something about is, to me, equivalent to the following. If someone owns an automatic rifle, but isn’t shooting or threatening anyone yet (i.e., using it to harm society), should we do something about it? What about a bazooka? More abstractly: should society aim to prevent harm when reasonably possible, or only punish it after the harm is already done?
I think the issue is, realistically, what CAN we do about it. They didn’t come by their position through shady or abusive practices, but by simply making the best platform. Customers feel Steam treats them well. Even if you tried to break it up, customers would just glomp onto one of the shards and we’d be right back here again. Would be like taking the rifle away, but society just being like “No, we WANT them to have a rifle” and giving them another one every time you take it away.
“Customers have enormous choice” about where they purchase their games, Newell testified, including “whether they buy the game on an Xbox, whether they buy it on Steam, whether they buy it on Epic Games Store or whether they buy it directly from software developers.”
Last I checked, Steam only sells PC games, it does not sell Xbox games. No one cares about Epic cause it sucks. I don’t know how many devs directly sell their games to the public. Itch.Io is extremely niche. That leaves GOG which does not have anywhere the market share that Steam has.
At the same time, Steam is, if not a monopoly, awfully close to one: It is so deeply entrenched that Epic Games has spent years literally giving away its games, and has barely made a dent—in fact, New Blood boss Dave Oshry said earlier this year that Epic freebies were great for sales on Steam. The Epic launcher is admittedly not an optimal experience, but a big challenge Epic Games faces is simply that an awful lot of gamers don’t seem to want an effective Steam competitor: Steam rules the roost, and they like it that way. A big majority of game developers, meanwhile, reckons that Steam really does hold a monopoly on the PC games market.
Gabe Newell, the co-founder and president of the gaming company Valve Corp., spent a morning in November 2023 with a handful of lawyers at the Arctic Club Hotel in downtown Seattle, talking in circles. Newell’s company runs Steam, the dominant online store for PC games, and was facing a lawsuit filed by a set of independent game developers who claimed that Steam operated an illegal monopoly in the $40 billion industry. Because developers relied so heavily on Steam, the suit argued, Valve has been able to stymie competition and charge “supracompetitive” fees.
The suit, which is ongoing, centers on what the developers alleged was a tacit company policy designed to punish them for offering discounts at competing online stores. But instead of defending the purported rule, Newell just denied it existed. “Valve does not have a policy or practice of dictating prices to third-party software developers on other platforms,” he said, according to a previously unreported transcript of his deposition. Presented with internal communications in which Valve employees appeared to be enforcing the rule, Newell repeated his denial, at times verbatim, again and again. When an attorney pressed him on how Valve would react if a developer did charge less money for a game on a competing store, Newell demurred. “I’m confused by your question,” he said, before later adding, “Many of our partners and many of our customers are quite happy with the service that we’re providing.”
But not all of Valve’s partners are thrilled with its influence over the market. In addition to the indie developers claiming to be burdened, court filings in the antitrust case contain email correspondence in which leaders from large corporations including Ubisoft Entertainment SA and Warner Bros. appear to be scrambling to do anything they can to avoid running afoul of Valve. The fear among some developers is that doing so can lead to penalties or even expulsion from Steam — a potentially devastating outcome for their game sales.
The US lawsuit Newell was deposed in, which has been certified as a class action, alleges that it “is not economically feasible” for game makers to leave Steam in favor of a rival store and that they are effectively “forced to comply” with Valve’s rules and high fees. A UK case echoes those claims, alleging Valve is “locking in” its users to Steam and earning “excessive” commissions.
One, it’s kind of silly to just ask someone accused of doing something bad/illegal and then take their word for it. What’s Gabe going to say? “Oh, yep, we are a monopoly, you’re right.”
Two, Valve makes some damn good software. Steam is really slick, has generally only improved over time, and has worked pretty flawlessly on every platform I’ve used it on. They also provide a great storefront experience, game managing experience, and have contributed to some awesome open source projects.
Three, I have zero doubt that Gabe and Valve in general has done some shady shit such as but not limited to the alleged unspoken policy mentioned in the article. No one becomes a billionaire ethically.
We HAD a lot of choices. Because there were lots of digital distribution platforms back in the 2000s.
Until that libertarian bastard paid publishers to use Steam for DRM on physical releases.
Used its Most Favoured Nation clause to prevent other services from charging less.
And whoops. They all go out of business.
Generations of G*mers have grown up only knowing the Steam monopoly. That’ll they create any old excuse to try and defend it.
Until that libertarian bastard paid publishers to use Steam for DRM on physical releases.
Source on that?
You won’t get one, unless they decide to post a pic of their asshole.
It’s all to common nowadays that PC gaming for a lot of people (and especially people new to the platform) is essentially “Steam” gaming…
There’s still choices, you can buy from the Microsoft store, or publisher stores like origin or Uplay. Epic is a direct competitor, GOG is in a subset of the market like itch.io. Amazon sells PC games. There’s several streaming options as well.
PC gaming is a far more competitive market than your grocery store.
And G*mers throw a pissy fit anytime you suggest using them.
Also Steam leverages it’s monopoly to prevent games being sold cheaper on other services.
Gamers complain all the time. I also don’t really have sympathy for billionaire publishers complaining about the one company not actively fucking consumers.
Valve is actively fucking consumers by preventing games being sold cheaper elsewhere.
Valve has a monopoly at being the only online gaming storefront that doesn’t suck.
Gog and itch.io are decent. They’re different types of stores, but very usable.
Yup, it’s why I am willing to argue for them, at least until Gabe dies. He’s proven to be far more fair and I know you wouldn’t get that deal anywhere else. These days it really does seem like there a coordinated push to attack valve for not being scum like the rest of the industry these last couple of months.
It does make me nervous though that one player has so much power.
But certainly in the here and now as a consumer, I use steam because it makes life easier. It makes it super easy to join and host multiplayer games, gives me access to convenient game recording stuff without having to have separate software, lets me share games with my found family, and most games have achievements, which my silly achievement-whore brain loves. I’m also grateful because if not for Steam’s work developing proton, I doubt my switch to Linux would have been as straightforward as it has been.
I agree that it does seem like a targeted attack on Steam by industry hacks who I trust infinitely less than Steam. Corporations are never our friends, merely our temporary allies. However, the hacks attacking Steam are definitely my enemies, and the enemy of my enemy is my temporary ally
It’s because they actively fight for the consumer rather than the publishers.
It’s funny though because valve has so much fucking money because they are not chasing next quarters arbitrary gains…
Valve is proof that if you don’t try to screw over your customers somehow you end up with profits. Weird how that works, and instead of companies learning something from that we’ll… they do what capitalism does…
Nah I think gog is fine, they’re just not the same size (and for linux also not plug & play)
The only one that lets me keep in my library, download and install at any time games that were delisted 10 or 15 years ago by their publishers.
For that reason alone, they deserve my money over any other storefront.
You mean to tell me that Gabe Newell wasn’t magically the only “good” billionaire? Color me shocked.
Honest question, is there any other store that dorectly supports seamlessly running games on Linux? Even games that do not natively build for Linux?
No. You can use Lutris although it appears to be unmaintained. Native Itch games work fine. Even better than the Windows versions do on windows because you don’t need Admim privileges to install for whatever fucking reason
Oh, I know how to run my games, my point was more that in that case, Steam does have a literal monopol on being the only store that can run most games on Linux without using any 3rd party tools.
Not that I mind at all, and it’s not a real problem, but I was just wondering if that’s technically the case.
Given that Proton is open source, provides plenty of instructions and permits reproduction and distribution (BSD-3-Clause-Open-MPI), any other store could likewise include it or a fork of it. They may have a factual monopoly, but it’s not enforced legally in any way.
It’s just that nobody seems to compete meaningfully. Steam has a vested interest in being independent from Microsoft, maintaining their own SteamOS and making games run on it. Other companies just might not have the same commercial drive. And if there are easy to use 3rd party tools that people are content with, why would they bother investing in their own solution? They’re accessible to the Linux market through no work of their own.
Of course, there are some companies actively not wanting to work with Linux. Some just don’t trust the platform. Some require particular technology that might not work on Linux. For example, things like kernel-level-anticheat being confined to the wine environment defeats the point of spying on the whole OS. And some would require additional work to make it run smoothly, which obviously is an investment into a market they may feel doesn’t promise enough profit.
There are plenty of frontend alternatives out there that work fairly seamlessly and, at this point, I don’t think work on compatibility tools like Proton would be too affected even if Valve decided to stop working on it tomorrow.
running gog games through heroic is pretty much as seamless as steam
I use Lutris myself to run GOG games and have the same experience.
Mind you, sometimes I do have problems and have to tweak things to get them to run (usually switching the runner to wine-ge instead of wine-staging).
It’s very rare to be totally unable to run a GOG game in Linux with Lutris.
I would say that my rate of success with Steam is roughly the same.
That said, in Lutris I can run my games sandboxed with networking disabled, which I cannot in Steam (even if I started Steam itself sandboxed with networking disabled, Steam itself needs Internet access).
Maybe Steam is a little more seamless for non-technically adept users (of which there are more and more running Linux nowadays), but at least Lutris (and, I expect, Heroic) are way much more configurable and hence give a lot more possibilities for power users to do things like sandboxing or even to solve problems with running some more obscure or AAA games from a certain DRM-heavy era (for example, there’s a game which no matter what I couldn’t get to run in Steam, but with a bit of tweaking I could get a pirate copy to run in Wine under Lutris - still now that game is listed in ProtonDB as not running in Linux)
It’s good that the community stepped up when CD Projekt didn’t.
I was just curious whether technically Steam is a monopol for Linux, as in being the only store where you can run games without using 3rd party tools.
Not that I mind, running games on Linux is super easy nowadays (My favorite is Faugus launcher), but technically it can be another hurdle for some people.
But when I need to play some Epic free game, Heroic is awesome.
I mean, they develop and maintain Proton yet they don’t even prohibit you from using it on other things. If literally any company did that, their shareholders would riot…
…so I don’t think it technically qualifies as a monopoly, but they probably could have had a legal monopoly using an exclusivity patent on the tech (although they technically can’t patent the whole thing because it’s based on Wine, but they could have done this in a way that they could have).
That is a fair point. I’m also not trying to discredit Steam, I don’t really think there’s any kind of a problem as of now (well, apart from the fact that it could go downhill very fast once Steam changes hands), and the services they provide are reasonable and for me worth the 30% cut, especially their Proton work.
If literally any company did that, their shareholders would riot…
If Valve were a publicly traded company, their shareholders would have rioted over it
Well, things like Lutris do the same automated configuring of the underlying tools to run Windows games under Linux and putting it all under a “press button to play” interface as Steam as well as letting you manage your collection.
Lutris (and I believe Heroic too) even integrated with game stores and will list your games there and download them directly from there to install them.
What they don’t have is the store part - you can’t actually BUY games from those tools.
People using for example Lutris to play GOG games in Linux, have pretty much the same experience as using Steam from a browser to buy the games and then Steam app to manage your games collection and launch the games.
Having both Steam and Lutris, I personally prefer the latter because it seamlessly integrates with multiple stores and even works fine with games from other sources (such as games I bought in physical format way back in the day or games I bought directly from the developer).
Sure, the open source apps doesn’t include a store, but as I see it that’s actually a good thing since I’m not interested in getting the sales push to buy more games everytime I want to play a game, same as I’m not interested in seeing ads when I’m browsing the web.
What they don’t have is the store part - you can’t actually BUY games from those tools.
Heroic does let you buy games through the app, but it seems like it’s just a browser that gives heroic an affiliate link when you make the purchase.
Sorry but I have to disagree.
Holy failed updates batman. After I update some games, I have to fully restart heroic or it is an endless loop of “installing update” -> “Update available, click to install”
‘pretty much’ is doing heavy lifting
idk about that problem but some games just fuck. sometimes the instructions from others in “check compatibility” help
I was going to point out how heroic launcher is fine, but that’s not a store.
That’s not really Valve’s fault that all the other storefronts don’t care to support Linux, though.
The Epic store sucks ass, the EA store sucks ass, Nintendo hates it’s fans more than Trump hates women.
As a counter example, Mincraft is a stand alone game, it came out long after Steam was established and it runs on Linux as well at it does on Windows.
If independent games came with a launcher/update experience as good as Minecraft I would have no problem buying outside of the Steam ecosystem.
Asked about this rule, Newell repeatedly denied it exists, even when shown internal communications seemingly showing Valve employees enforcing it: “Valve does not have a policy or practice of dictating prices to third-party software developers on other platforms.” When asked how Valve would react if it ever happened, Newell initially said he was confused by the question and then added, “Many of our partners and many of our customers are quite happy with the service that we’re providing.”
It would be interesting to see what happens if some of the larger publishers did this.
Someone few weeks ago posted a link where there were few emails that were exchanged with Valve and puglishers(?) with redacted pieces here and there. Their point was that Valve tells devs/publishers to match prices of their games on their own stores to prices on Steam.
I may be not a great english speaker, but in reality it did read that if a company wants to make discount somewhere else, they need to match the exact same discount on Steam. Point of that was that Valve doesn’t want customers to think that Steam is an expensive option when shopping for games.
I think that this is a common misconception and Gabe was annoyed that interviewer had not double checked information regarding Valve policies.
This has been re-hashed over and over. The terms are that if they want to discount steam provided keys on another platform they have to match that price on Steam. Steam keys are free to generate for them. They are free to distribute them on any platform. But the deal they make when they generate the steam keys is that they will adhere to the pricing rule.
If they want to discount keys generated on Epic’s store, then they can generate and sell them at any price they want.
I believe there is an exception for bundles like the humble bundle.
This is becoming hair splitting, it’s clear they don’t want publishers give out keys on steams dime, that might change with charity bundle but the general rule stays the same.
I’m eager yo use GOG in Linux. Meanwhile, Steam is fine.
