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I’ve seen a world where access to knowledge and power is paywalled. And I’ve seen the one where that freedom is a granted right. I know which one I picked, and it’s because SO HELP ME, IF I CAN’T FIX IT MYSELF, I WILL BREAK IT MYSELF!
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Isn’t it funny how people who “have things” are less likely to be all that interested in leftism. And those who don’t have “things” look at them, want more leftism because they want want the “things” the people who have “things” and they don’t have.
And neither side understands the other.
Isn’t it funny how people who “have food” are less likely to be all that interested in leftism. And those who don’t have “food” look at them, want more leftism because they want want the “food” the people who have “food” and they don’t have.
It’s still garbled, but makes a better point.
Your edit makes a good insinuation “they’re just things” people think objects are frivolous things that tie you down because they’ve never experienced genuine lack.
Not like lack of toys, but the bear necessities of survival.
The basic necessities should just be provided, by that I mean food and shelter and basic medical care. If people want to live luxuriously that’s fantatic, going and toiling, innovating or improving their situation in someway should be encouraged; but no one should ever be shelterless and hungry.
Leftists aren’t jealous of rich people. Slanderous and incorrect
I just want to be able to live life as carefree as they can without regards to money. It’s a bit of jealousy but it’s not the overriding reason for it.
Ayn Rand has entered the chat.
What do you mean?
I have more things than I could ever want.
I want more agency.
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That leftism is a product of ressentiment from people who don’t have “things” against people who have “things”, I guess. ContraPoints-level take tbh.
I hate billionaires, not because I want to be a miserable sociopath with too much money, but because they are largely the reason that any kind of improvement to our planet and species is being blocked. I support socialized healthcare, not because I envy those who have the money to pay for live-saving healthcare, but because I don’t want to fucking die, etc. etc.
There certainly are people like BadEmpanada, who oppose unions and welfare so that “first-worlders can suffer”, but they certainly don’t reflect what leftism is in general.
BE
I agree, and I’d add it’s not even a specifically left wing impulse either. The Roman Republic of all institutions was deeply concerned with the idea that republics shouldn’t have private princes as well as kings. The fact the Roman Republic failed to contain its oligarchy to the point of fundamental destabilisation into arbitrary power is evidence people ought to pay attention to left wingers when they say the same thing about billionaires and the concentration of wealth.
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BE on twitter and BE while actually speaking seriously are like two different people. He seems to have an unhealthy addiction to creating twitter ragebate. I would not take it literally.
They don’t understand either side.
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That’s a different person you’re replying to
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I have plenty of things, and still support pretty left wing ideas (except for the violence that some people here seem think is required to be considered left).
civil engineer […] didn’t know what gentrification was…
Sweet jebus on ice-skates. The guy was potentially a literal if not figurative architect in service of one of the most profound mechanisms of gentrification and hadn’t heard of it?! That’s like designing cars and being unaware of traffic jams and induced demand.
What do you mean with critical theory?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_theory
There are different forms but it’s basically getting woke to class struggle between people who own shit and rent it out and people who get paid a bit to use the shit, but never actually get to own real shit or control what shit they decide to do.
I’m putting it pretty bluntly and pretty woke…ly, and a lil but Marxly. It’s also about analyzing systems we use to organise ourselves and what they do to us. Basically how to get people to actually wake up to how and why things are how they are and maybe how they could be different / better.
In the context of STEM students who focus on inputs, outputs, and engines at the expense of considering societal impacts (or simply telling themselves it’s the job of poor humanities students to get elected and pass laws to constrain the most egregious negative externalities of technology) it’s asking who an efficiency is for. Efficiency cannot exist in a moral vacuum. As Kim Stanley Robinson summarized in The Ministry for the Future (2020):
… there is good efficiency and bad efficiency, good inefficiency and bad inefficiency. … preventative health care saves enormous amounts in medical costs later, and is a good efficiency. Eating your extra children (this is Swift’s character’s “modest proposal”) would be a bad efficiency. Any harm to people for profit is likewise bad, no matter how efficient. Using an over-sized vehicle to get from point A to point B is a bad inefficiency, and there are many more like it; but oxbows in a river, defining a large flood plain, is a good inefficiency
maybe post the notes for critique? this is bait
(please please please be my prof next semester…)
I don’t think OP is implying while loops require ideological understandings, but rather more foundationally as to understand how computer commodities are made and traded, the concept of centralization simply arises. Thus, the discussion of control, IP, etc, and now AI and labor.
I don’t think OP is implying while loops require ideological understandings
I am.
The slaving masses of the proletarian transistors are being controlled, dictated, and trapped in a perpetual loop by an entity the systems deem as superior, the bourgeoisie user. Only by breaking the chains of these oppressive confines can we liberate the process.
And thus, you need to make sure you have a break clause for your loops.
Bits together byte!!
That’s a new line for me! Thanks!
sudo chown -R means-of-production
But why would that be discussed in an intro to programming class?
Typically, historically, it didn’t matter really. Moore’s Law, general positive vibes from the prospect of computer tech in the future of the industry, and why scare undergrads seeking good salaries away from institutions taking donations from said corps? But things are pretty different now. AI is less of a thought experiment than before. What better lens to analyze AI than from labor in economics, i.e., Marxism?
The students joined the class to learn programming, and not to analyze AI? It’s like if I joined a pottery class and the teacher spent an hour talking about how pottery isn’t a high paying profession. I didn’t come for life advice or economic rambling, I came to learn pottery.
Because people are using AI in programming now. It will only be utilized more as time goes on. Getting into the risks and reward are necessary to know what to do and what not to do. Or at the very least what to be wary of.
Introduction Courses are the Who, What, When, Why, Where, and How. Knowing what you’re getting into and what you will be dealing with are just as foundational.
It will only be utilized more as time goes on.
What makes you think so?
I don’t see people giving up on it anytime soon. I do think eventually it will serve some kind of purpose or be refined enough to be reliable in some way. I think far too many people jumped into this stuff with both feet thinking the future is now and skipped over creating shortcuts for tasks in an effort to take shortcuts for profits.
And there are plenty of people who are willing to use and abuse this tech for nefarious purposes. Deep fakes, fraud, etc. they definitely won’t give it up as they don’t care about the effects on the rest of us
AI is used in every field now. Programming courses can just do what every other course does: tell the student that nobody can stop them from using AI, but if you do be prepared to fail the test. Leveraging AI for work, and the ethics of doing so, is something that can be covered in a different class. But my intro programming course taught the basics of programming, not what industry programming was like. Just like my intro to chemistry course never taught what it was like to work in the chemistry industry.
How many programmers DON’T use AI to some degree already? As the technology continues to improve adoption and usage will only increase. Actually hand coding stuff is soon to be a mostly lost craft.
Programmers use AI to do work. The goal is to get work done. But the goal of a class is to learn. If the AI is helping you learn then that it’s probably fine, though many studies indicate that using AI actually hinders learning.
My bad for looking for nuance in a microblog meme, jesus. Education ain’t just the literal skills and nothing else, y’know. Teachers and classes are more than just human textbooks and tutorials.
And yet, the intro programming class I took just focused on the skills and I thought it was great. I’m mainly refuting OPs implication that you have to teach leftist ideology in order to teach programming. It sounds like they just want to teach leftist ideology, which imo is fine as long as it’s stated in the syllabus, so the students know what they are signing up for.
I’m glad your personal experience was great, I get where u are coming from. In most other similar situations, that tracks. Some topics do truly have little to no need for an in-depth political angle. And yes, most of my enjoyable classes too were non-political, although not because they were non-political.
But what is so fundamental to “leftist ideology” (I take that as Marxist economics, to be clear), is the role of labor in the material world. That’s the shortest I can boil that down to. And today, in “2026,” with the prevalence of AI, and based on the post mentioning “leftist ideology” and “teaching an intro to comp sci class,” what else could they be talking about? AI, as we all know, is a labor-cost saver for bosses. Economically, that is what it is hoped to function as. It is (ideally) a profit increaser. That’s just the math that any and all capitalist follows. A teacher that understands that, and is in the position of progressing their students’ careers, yeah, can’t blame them for “seeing it everywhere” and wanting to share that.
Honestly there’s hundreds of other ways you can tie leftist ideas to CS and modern software. Like alienation of labour, powers of scale, etc. You could teach a whole class on it if you wanted. You could so so even before AI. I don’t think many of the students would be happy about that though.
If it’s science, it’s woke!
Real patriots use the abacus.Look at the fancy pants here that uses advanced technology like the abacus instead of counting on their nine fingers like the rest of us!
The abacus is also woke unfortunately
Dang it. Is it the bead colors?
Math is woke
Are we supposed to be bartering with sheep?
Strange how I’m the polar opposite of a leftist and seem to excel at my programming job of 7 years when I was all entirely self-taught in the years leading up to it
It’s almost like programming syntax and structure for every popular language in the world has absolutely nothing to do with politics but you all want to pretend otherwise, how interesting!
I guess we simply can’t teach the basics of array indexing within a for loop without mentioning how evil it is to vote for Donald Trump midway through… oh wait yea we can we just choose not to and pretend it’s not possible XD
Be sure to read through an entire novel on x86 intel assembly and let me know what political stance the language has, the countless MOV inputs within the source code for all NES games is rooted in leftist ideology surely
Clown world to the extreme, I cannot comprehend programming being remotely linked to politics outside of purposely naming your variables certain ways intentionally, what’s next will walking a dog be political in 2030? Better not own a white fur dog guys
You’re a 100% correct. You’re just getting downvoted because you claim to be “the polar opposite of a leftist”.
“What a jester this comrade is. Computers don’t know politics, stupid. How could they think that there’s any ‘leftism’ [🤮] when I, a proud and open chud, am paid money by some rich guy to make computers at the computer store (that I franchise from him as his self-taught business apparentice 😎).”
Y’know I remember ten years ago we had guys like you who thought it was stupid to unionize compsci work or form some guild that could enforce minimum protections. Wonder how they’re doing these days.
Great argument pal, you’ve really convinced me that it’s impossible to teach people what an if else statement is without preaching how evil people are who don’t believe in extremist leftist political nonsense
Oh wait no you haven’t you’re just babbling irrelevant nonsense that has nothing to do with this at all, banger!
Oh, you must have misunderstood. They’re not doing well, those people got fired in subsequent waves as their skills became less valuable and there was nothing stopping mass firings. Should have made that more clear for the lawnmower man.
Couldn’t have been an easier thing to refute and yet you still fumbled it with the whiney victim card.
Couldn’t have been an easier thing to refute and yet you still fumbled it with the whiney victim card.
You say, as you yourself appear incapable of refuting anything I’ve said - curious!
Love getting endless responses by emotional people upset enough to reply yet not one of them makes any point against anything I’ve actually said, very intelligent people on here
Click the down arrow quick just click it and run without any proper response (since you all can’t give one ofc), emotional lemmingz malding at the truth, what else is new hold hands and pretend fantasy is reality together quick!!!
NES x86
Be quiet dumb nazi.
HURR NAZI HURR DURR EVERYONE NOT AN EXTREME LEFTIST IS A NAZI HURR DURR I HAVE NO POINTS BUT UR NAZI CUZ U JUST ARE HURRRR UPVOTE ME FRIENDS FOR CALLING EVIL NON-LEFTIST OUR FAVOURITE HOT NAZI WORD MY EXTREMIST LEMMY BRETHREN HURRRRRRR -You
It’s fine, you are the normal ones for thinking like this ofc ;) my "if Highly_emotional_monkey_brain_response == high_IQ, print(“he’s so smart”); resulted in FALSE I’m afraid
It’s been four hours I’m checking in to see at what point you realized that all of these people are messing with you.
I just came back to do the same thing haha
I mean, there’s plenty of things that can be considered left-leaning about it, but they all pretty much surround the culture of programming work. I would tend to agree that there’s nothing inherently leftist about programming in general, but I could see how they may feel about it when discussing open source software, AI, and how progressive the general demographics of college educated programmers would tend to be.
That said, your response is a little… much.
It’s fine they’ll all downvote me without being able to respond, it’s the classic low IQ lemmy special, puts the Leddit hivemind to shame
how progressive the general demographics of college educated programmers would tend to be.
I assure you this foundation is laid well before they reach the age of specializing into programming, it’s why there’s such a gigantic disparity from self-taught programmers (which none of these lemmings can grasp ofc)
Open-source software is a valid point though, I’ve already seen that first-hand from the Loonatix lmao can confirm
your response is a little… much.
Just look at how they act to me, I have no respect for these emotional losers who throw meltdowns over the truth they ‘don’t like hearing’ and exaggerate literal fantasy nonsense in an attempt to screech back as if it’s a valid counter-argument, normal responses like your own are the rarity on this website
You do you but I’ll be gone from this place in no time, what’s the point in involving yourself with such a clueless emotional baby community like this website houses, pure emotion > logic on here which they reward each other for acting like purely since they subjectively agree XD
People ‘screech’ at you because you sound like an arsehole, dude. Try being less up yourself and you might have a better time.
I’m the polar opposite of a leftist
A nazi?
Legit this behaviour right here is why everyone normal and sane within our entire world on every other mainstream platform full of average people with normal morals and values views you extremists as clowns by default fyi
You’ve swung that label around to the point where it means nothing at all, no actual points no nothing just ‘oh you disagree so you’re a nazi lawlz!’ and this community is so deep within this fantasy that you all hold hands, agree and upvote each other by default no matter how utterly ridiculous you look
Now feel free to downvote me to -50 now as an emotional response as if it’ll change this truth of this
“AGREE WITH ME OR YOU’RE EVIL BECAUSE… BECAUSE… BECAUSE YOU JUST ARE, OKAY??!?” - You
Imagine having a meltdown because you got asked if you were a Nazi, the exact opposite of the extremist “Antifascists”.
Imagine having a meltdown
Does it ever get boring projecting fake fantasies 24/7, defeating said strawman, and attempting to declare victory over having done so
Congrats on a counter-argument that addresses zero of my points - naturally you’ll never acknowledge what I actually said since you cannot argue against it
So you’ll just rummage through for anything else to say, “hurr durr nice meltdown bro lol!” to avoid responding properly, peak emotional lemmy logic
Be sure to try that in a live debate one day; it’ll go really well for you, I promise
Not posting is a free action.
But, for funsies, what else is the exact opposite of a leftist?
Ok
Oh I just typed the perfect reply to someone else which also fits you perfectly, huh how strange almost like you all act the same on here running on pure emotion!
Here’s what my previous reply to them 3 minutes ago literally just said:
Congrats on a counter-argument that addresses zero of my points - naturally you’ll never acknowledge what I actually said since you cannot argue against it
So you’ll just rummage through for anything else to say, “hurr durr nice meltdown bro lol!” to avoid responding properly, peak emotional lemmy logic
Be sure to try that in a live debate one day; it’ll go really well for you, I promise
How fitting for you as well! Imagine initiating a conversation with someone only to then run away when they reply back with something you cannot handle LOL
Quick keep up your act so you can pretend you’re just trolling! Reply back with “Ok” again like a literal child arguing, SUCH a good look for you all on here to immediately shutdown when confronted with reality!
hurr durr nice meltdown bro lol!
Low IQ specimen incapable of debating like an adult
Types drivel when unsure of how to respond, literal child argument tactic “haha I was just trolling!”
Real mature behaviour, you sure “won” this argument vs me alright! This chain was a GREAT look for you!
Now hold this block for me real quick, looks like I get the last reply aw nuu by your own logic I guess that means I win now, poor you :(
haha I was just trolling!
Legit this behaviour right here is why everyone normal and sane within our entire world on every other mainstream platform full of average people with normal morals and values views you extremists as clowns by default fyi
See and I thought Lemmy was too obscure for the average person.
Can’t imagine why
You don’t need to go all the way to poles to find Nazis on the right in {current year}
Yeah everyone who disagrees with you extremists and forms their own unique personal opinions based on the facts of reality is a nazi ofc
Then you all sit around confused wondering why this platform isn’t taken serious by literally anyone outside of it
“Hrmmm well 99% of people on the planet must simply be evil nazis unlike us!” Yeah surely bro surely, it’s those who are the crazy ones for sure!
I just stumbled into this discussion, but it seems to me like you were the one to introduce extremism when you took an ideology and called yourself the “polar opposite” of it.
So you don’t believe in science, but know how to program?
Your brain must be like a clear jelly by now
I feel like this isn’t super new. You haven’t been able to do things like talk academically about network security or cryptography without being incredibly critical of government for decades.
My professors sure were. I felt really bad for them, honestly. They were the driving force to make philosophy and ethics courses mandatory at my university in order to recieve a comp sci degree.
“If you work in these areas long enough, at a high enough level, you WILL be asked to compromise something for the benefit of a state actor, and you might not even realize it’s happening. The person asking you to do it might not even realize what is really happening.” Was what our prof told a packed lecture hall.
This is pretty much my inspiration for self hosting. A three letter agency needs to infiltrate my network or show up to my house with a warrant. I’m not going to be able to stop them, but at least they’ll have to work for it. I’d love a CSI Miami’s episode level of effort for them to discover that I’m just a fucking nerd sharing Linux ISOs.
This made me image an exchange like
Agent 1: OK McNulty, you have finished your forensic scan of that scumbag’s computer. I can’t wait to hear whether we are taking this monster down for espionage, stealing classified information, or even just another copyright infringement case. What is really in that folder of “Linux ISOs?”
Agent 2: You are not gonna believe this…
When I was at Uni, we had a mandatory Ethics class for Comp Sci/Comp Eng. I think it was for all majors under the Sciences banner.
I want to hear that lecture!
Would have saved us a lot of trouble if it had been this whole damn while.
What? This is plain stupid
found the omarchy user
The what?
I genuinely used to believe this too, but the CCC opened my eyes to anarchism, and then HN opened my eyes to plutarchism.
I iterate now between several modes of: “GPLv3 is the best license humanity can use to better itself, decentralised projects are mandatory to keep authoritarian regimes at bay, but damn do I love using MIT projects in my hobby code projects, and hmm it would be nice to make some side income with said hobby project…”
Each of these contradictions of the other, which bothered me in my late 20s, but now I think it’s relatively normal to inhabit several conflicting ideals at once
hmm it would be nice to make some side income with said hobby project…"
This is a symptom of being forced to live under capitalism. If your needs were generally met by society you wouldn’t have this urge.
I actually really hate that every hobby should be incorporated into hustle culture these days. You crafty? Sell what you make. You like fixing things? Charge people for it. You play video games? Stream.
We’ve built a world that only cares about cash and it’s exhausting
I like to fix things. I more like to fix things for people in my community to help build community.
I remember hearing about repair drives or something along those lines in my community where handy volunteers spend a day fixing peoples things for free
Some of it might be practical.
E.g. selling knit plushies or hats so people in your community get food quality items and at the same time you get more funding for your hobby and don’t have 100 hats lying around.
But yeah. I dream of an alternate reality where I could just go borrow a community oscilloscope when needed for a project since I don’t have the €450 right now to put to that. (My projects require at least 100 MHz 4 channel and might as well spend the extra 50 for a good Siglent with 10x more memory depth)
My delusions of grandeur involve adding a massively useful addition to a successful MIT/BSD licensed project, but release it in strict AGPL. Companies steal volunteer work all the time and those licenses let them. I want to put a wrench into that. All I’m missing is a lot of talent, experience, time, and money. Any day now.
I feel you on the license thing. There’s the appeal of software that can’t be easily corporatized and then there’s the idea that if I could just get lucky with my own project, I wouldn’t have to work for some soulless company generating value for shareholders.
All would be cool if it weren’t for rent and having to pay for food.
I dream of a world where UBI is ubiquitous and people can just eke out a living following their passion projects and the need for closed source projects just vanishes…
Rant/Fantasy:
I also dream of a world where capitalism exists but there’s a mandatory enforcement of the Gini Coefficient being less than 5%. As in, people still trade goods/services with each other, can absolutely make money, corner markets and bribe regulators to keep their competitors out, with the caveat that the most they can ever make by putting in such time and effort towards corruption makes them at maximum only 5x richer than the average person.A hard cap limit on the maximum wealth would IMO enable capitalism to actually function properly, the state wouldn’t have such strong powers over the individual, and nor will the individual wield really that much power over others. I’m probably veering now into anarcho-capitalism, which is always dangerous territory because the greatest propenents for it tend to be cryptobro eugenic shitheads…
Edit: Oh and such enforcement would require some kind of god-level regulator without any humans in the loop, so I’m going to call it “anarcho-muted-capitalism-AIkillerdroneregulator”. I’m also going to stop talking now.
If we have to live under capitalism, wealth cap is the best outcome. Wealth cap ensures no more private equity, better utilization of capital and goods (no more super yachts!), and corporations become coops. But then it’s a dangerous territory towards Christianity… So any kind of centralized government requires to be a benevolent god… hmmmmm
Please, do not stop talking !
5% would be 20×
What’s to keep someone from bribing someone to make it so they can make more money than other people
how do you make that calculation just out of interest. I “vibed” 5x but didn’t know how to calculate it
5 per cent/per 100. 20 goes into 100 5 times so 5 goes into 100 20 times. Also 5 is half of 10 that goes into 100 10 times? Idk how does math even work
So basically the problem is capitalism
As usual
My general approach to licensing these days is:
- binaries, apps, products -> AGPLv3, fuck you I don’t care if your company can’t use my shit
- libraries -> MPL-2.0 or LGPL, grr… maybe you can use my library…
For things I might try selling: BUSL. It isn’t FOSS. It’s source available, but it turns into FOSS after some time period.
I’m not super happy with MPL-2.0: https://piefed.social/c/opensource@lemmy.ml/p/2231796/does-the-mpl-2-0-have-a-giant-loop-hole
I wish we had something closer to OSL 3.0, but OSL itself has its own problems. :/
Licenses are wonderful and amazing. It’s incredibly cool that we have so many choices.
Companies are outright stealing artists full works and selling access to systems trained on that work.
Licenses are for me and you and our friends. Corporations DGAF. They will steal your source available content, de-compile your binaries and wrongfully sue you out of existence if you dare to raise a case against them.
Sure, if you can get someone to represent you for free, you might be able to take a year off work and end up with a small payday.
Corporations DGAF. They will steal your source available content, de-compile your binaries and wrongfully sue you out of existence if you dare to raise a case against them.
Also true. Although, that doesn’t mean you should bend over and make it easy for them by licensing things as MIT. GPL if you can, MPL if you must.
we have so many choices.
I’m actually not sure about this. I wish the FSF or someone would come out with more licenses for different use cases.
I’m actually not sure about this. I wish the FSF or someone would come out with more licenses for different use cases.
I disagree. I find that there is a license for every use case. What use case are you thinking of that does not have a license?
For things I might try selling: BUSL. It isn’t FOSS. It’s source available, but it turns into FOSS after some time period.
Yes! Time bomb licenses are the way forward
There is no contradiction between GPL and making some side income.
In fact, it’s more likely, since for example, you could make corporations pay for being able to use your code under a different license.
If it was MIT, they can just use it and give you fuck all.
Or, as the SME on it, you can offer paid support for it
You could literally sell the unchanged Linux kernel, the GPL allows that as long as you abide by the other provisions. Convincing someone they should pay for something that you also have to provide for free might be a tad difficult but it wouldn’t be against the license
It’s fine to contradict yourself, as long as you don’t impose those contradictions on the world or externalise that tension. Hold it within yourself, and I will hold mine.
But I need to be heard and seen at all times! I have an attention deficit problem!
It’s not even that “hardcore” of ideology honestly. It depends a lot on the lens you view it through your society. If it’s far right, then saying “water is a human right!” is going to seem extreme leftism.
Yeah those for…next loops are pure communism.
I can’t help but broadly agree, computing is the new de facto means of production. It is inherently political.
“…because when we go online, we free ourselves from consumerism, racism, and get to express ourselves however we want without it getting back to our school or employer.”
Honest Trailers may have gone downhill from thier peak, but Hackers (and the OG Dune) videos gave great lines worth sharing
We definitely do not free ourselves from either of those online
