- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes@lemmy.world
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/16451158
You must log in or # to comment.
People who won’t vote for the Democrats don’t necessarily see the world the same way as people who do vote D. Really go have a look at https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020
There are ethical lines some people actually won’t cross, e.g. voting for the Ds who make anthropogenic climate change worse and so are causing a mass extinction, sell weapons to people actively committing a genocide, further an economic system that rewards narcissistic sociopaths and punishes ethical people, …
Go look at the linked graph above again. You may not agree, but understand that there are people who do, and to get these people to vote for the Ds, you need to convince them why voting for omnicidal, genocidal, greedy sociopaths is the right thing to do. The “lesser evil” argument doesn’t work on them, because if you look at the linked graph above and compare the distances between the parties, and understand there are ethical lines between the Ds and leftists/socialists/Greens/etc. they won’t cross; then it means vastly better arguments need to be put forth. Yes the Rs are psychopaths and openly racist, but compared to the slightly less (compare the distances on the graph) sociopathic Ds, then
“It is infinitely better to vote for freedom and fail than to vote for slavery and succeed.” - Eugene V. Debs, Appeal to Reason, 1900-10-13.
“Wage-labor is but a name; wage-slavery is the fact.” - Eugene V. Debs, The Socialist Party and the Working Class 1904-09-01
If there are no ethical options, then activity making the world more evil isn’t something these people will do.
Yeah but not voting just shifts everything further right.
To a point. At some point, lesser-evil, blue-no-matter-who people realize that they cannot prevent the right from gaining power without the help of these other people they have lost. They realize the only way to get these people to vote D is to shift D leftward. Then everything shifts to the left. This process has already started and barking at the people forcing this change won’t do a thing against the Rs. Helping the change progress faster might.
The problem is that when leftists don’t vote, the Democrats look at the data analytics and they see fewer leftists and more centrists. If you didn’t vote, they think you’re a centrist. They’re gonna go rightwards to try to get you to vote for them. So if you’re a neutral voter, you’re accountable for the rightward shift in the Overton window.
That’s not a problem that’s a feature
Just a reminder that liberals will never be on the side of the revolution. They’re always going to say that voting for them is what matters. It’s all a sham to prevent you from actually doing anything.
That’s stupid. Voting only takes one day. People have 365 days a year to do direct action. Whether you vote doesn’t have anything to do with whether you do direct action.
Ok I voted green
Hopefully not in the presidential election. That would have been stupid.
Cuz magician Jill Stein, who magically appears before every election, then disappears again afterward, only got 0.5% of the total votes cast.
🙄
both sides are pretty bad, but you still gotta get on the bus
Funny analogy because I’ve had instances where the public transit was so bad it was faster to walk the ~3-4 miles then use it
I guess, to further the analogy - there’s likely a bus that will get you close to your destination, but you’ve got to walk the rest of the way (or vice versa), call that political activism.
and if there is a bus available to you and you don’t take it, you’re just a person yelling at buses, which helps no one (except maybe your mental health?).
Or alternatively you can use an ebike which is 3 times faster, or a regular bike which is 2 times faster if you have one, at least where I live. I don’t think comparing voting in the US to public transit which is also dysfunctional here is the flex you think it is.
All the busses are going to the same place
That doeant mean you have to get on one of the two major busses. It’s completely fine to pick a third smaller bus. It might take longer to arrive, but it doesn’t smell like someone pissed on the seat.
ranked choice voting would open up so many more bus routes
If you guarantee your vote to someone, they will lose any incentive to act for your benefit. It’s really that simple. And if genocide is not a bridge too far for you, God help you, because obviously there’s no limit to what you’ll put up with.
The idea is that you vote for the most pragmatic option at every election. No vote should be guaranteed, but at the same time it’s still your civic duty to make a choice as a voter.
I understand the idea. I’m pointing out the big flaw in that idea. And I disagree that it’s your civic duty to “just vote”.
That’s how democracies work, the electorate needs to be active and involved every election. Therefore, it is the civic duty of every citizen to participate in the system and cast their vote. You don’t have to “guarantee” your vote, but you should still vote on what you think is the best choice every time you get.
Good thing Trump ended the genocide!
Anything to not have to grapple with the idea that just voting blue is not enough, huh? And are we going to pretend that Biden didn’t gleeflully pour billions into the genocide?
Yes, don’t vote at all. Better to have more genocide but having the moral high ground of not having voted for less.
Is it really that uncomfortable to engage with the idea? This is just an online forum, there is no possible negative consequence to whatever you write. Humor me, try to refute the idea that voting for a politician purely based on the actions of their opponent disincentivizes the politician to do anything for your benefit. Note that I’m not mentioning genocide, morality, blue, green, red or yellow or whatever. As far as I’m concerned this is about a fictional country called Fakeland with two parties.
If you guarantee your vote to a politician, what incentive do they have to give even a single shit about your standards of living?
How do you guarantee a vote? It’s not like you’re telling the politician ahead of time.
You can’t really say you’re against genocide if you knowingly take no action against the candidate that says he wants to glass Gaza so he can build a nice resort there.
I want to preface this by saying that I do vote in every election, and I think everyone should exercise their right to vote.
That being said, both parties are bad. We’re in a class war, and the Democrats are just as beholden/part of the oligarchy as the Republicans are.
The Republicans are definitely worse than the Democrats. There’s no question there, but what we really need is a fucking revolution.
Also, it’s ridiculous for someone to think that every “Both sides suck” posts are bought and paid for propaganda. Some may be. I’d be surprised if it didn’t happen sometimes. But, the majority are probably just understandably frustrated people.
We shouldn’t be policing people’s expression of frustration with the system. If someone can’t express frustration without being told they’re a shill or a propagandist, they’re not suddenly going to become an engaged happy partisan. Instead, they’re probably just going to get even more disillusioned with the process and will stop talking about it and maybe stop voting altogether.
The democratic party sucks. It bends over backwards to help out corporate interests. It’s more interested in winning the next election cycle than it is in making important changes. It often goes wherever the wind blows without having any conviction.
OTOH, the republicans are much worse. They’re hell bent on enacting racist and sexist policies that will ensure straight, white, christian men remain in power. They’re currently led by an absolute moron who’s by far the most corrupt person I’ve ever seen in my life.
So, the options are currently between a status quo party that might not make your life better, vs a party led by a chaos gremlin which will systematically destroy everything within its reach. Voting for the lesser of two evils may be annoying, but it’s often important.
Another problem with the Democrats, even if the next election cycle boots these fascist fucks, it doesn’t automatically roll back all the damage the Nazis have done. Sure, the Democrats will repair some of the damage, but realistically, the needle never gets moved all the way back by the Dems.
Yep, millennial Facebook-tier Office memes aren’t going to make me sign my name to endorse genocide, sorry Blue MAGA.
The idea of a “revolution” is just a meme. The only people who dream about them are people who are too online and college students, and the reason for that is because these are the people who don’t have a lot of responsibilities. A revolution means violence, it means destruction, it means instability, it means danger. These are things that most people want to avoid because they have families, work, and lives of their own. The only people who go out and do things like this are people with nothing to lose, like the people of Iran a couple of months ago. Just like what we saw in Iran, revolution attempts are not guaranteed to be successful, and even when they are, sometimes the new system is even worse. This is often the case, and for the people who gave up everything, their sacrifices will only be in vain. A revolution is not something that’s desirable or realistic.
We’re basically living through the second gilded age where robber barons are robbing the country blind to their benefit while government is rolling over. What we need is somebody like Teddy Roosevelt. Somebody who can’t be bought, can’t be influenced, and can’t be shaken. We need somebody who’s not scared of the billionaire class, not wooed by dark money, and is principled to their core so much so that they see it as their life mission to break up monopolies and take the billionaires. Once we have that person, a coalition will form around them, and that’s when real change can happen.
Now the question is which is easier, convincing millions of people to vote for “anyone not a republican” or convincing a candidate to be more than “not republican”
It depends. What it means to be “more than “not Republican”” is different for different people. Some will never be satisfied, and others are just plain wolves in sheep’s clothing trying to drive down Democratic turnout so the fascists can hold power.
While yes, those groups certainly exist, the majority of people just truly need help from someone who actually cares to help them, and not someone who says they do, but abandons the idea when it turns out to be difficult to supply that help because it never meant that much to them in the first place, if it was ever anything more than talk to begin with.
Pointing out the tiny problematic groups without even mentioning the much larger legitimate group reminds me of people who complain about welfare because of the tiny group of people that exploit it, completely ignoring the huge amount of people that just need help.
Every time the welfare thing comes up I respond, so what? Who fucking cares if some tiny minority of people abuse the system if it means the people who really need it have easier access, or access at all? No one abusing welfare is so rich you would argue they don’t need help anyway, unless there’s some sort of corruption going on. Big companies take way more in handouts from the government than people on welfare. Why can’t the big powerful successful corporations pull themselves up by their bootstraps?
Hey, primaries are around now. It’s a great time for that!
Participate in primaries. THIS is the election you want for that.
Depends on where you are. My state doesn’t have primaries till August and by then it’s basically already decided.
Same here, most primary candidate drop out before I even get my mail in ballot. Also there hasnt been a fair primary in 12 years so like so for over a decade party direction has been at the mercy of quid pro quo backroom deals, or straight up just appointing a candidate. Why would the next one suddenly be a fair representation of the will of voters?
What DNC did to Bernie caused Trump.
To only have two sides is the problem.
Sure, but as far as what we can control right now, let’s elect some fucking Democrats please
How much longer will this be a cookie cutter answer?
No, the point is to agitate you against an establishment that wants to prevent you from having a better choice.
Liberals who are passionately defending lesser evil electoralism before primaries have even started are either idiots in denial or moderates who don’t want to talk about why their party is nearly as unpopular as Trump.
Damn you really blame people for not choosing between Moloch or Baal.
You gotta keep voting the lesser of two evils for the main elections, while voting for the best alternatives you can find locally.
One should vote, it simply shouldn’t be the end of it.
If you voted Democrat and thought you made your part, wrong. You barely made one shift towards one slightly less terrible group. This is not victory. A part of what you should do, yes. All you should do - not.
The psyop’d to defeatism think the lesser of two evils is the best they can do. Remind them, it’s not. It’s still evil.
Awareness of the totalitarian tacking tip-toe con may help dispel the groupthink affirmation of succumbing to that. One “side” loudly promises one personal freedom cared about while quietly taking two economic freedoms that “side”'s herd don’t care about, then the other “side” loudly restores one economic freedom their “side”'s herd care about while quietly taking two personal freedoms that “side”'s herd don’t care about, back and forth, stripping you of freedom, keeping you blinded in fear of what the other is going to take from you, divided and conquered. … But try explaining that in a tweet/tictok sized explanation to those who’ve had their attention spans crippled.
Some say it’s futile. It’s not. Defy that dire prognosis.
Carry on mendwards. :)
Republicans also really love when you vote third party.
Republicans also really love when you vote third party.
(Or Democrat party too, depending on where the votes are being taken from)
Until enough people do, and sufficient votes are taken from the purple party, that they lose.
… But then, may also need to mend all the lobbying, gerymandering, voter suppression, rigged voting machines, electoral college, etc first/simultaneously.
Imagine if the people in USA got a system that helped them vote for what they want, not against who they don’t want. Imagine… :)
Until enough people do, and sufficient votes are taken from the purple party, that they lose.
Nope, you utterly miss the point. First past the post means that Republicans win when the anti-fascist vote is split.
If you don’t like the current candidates of the Democrat party, then go vote in the Democrat primary.
Imagine if the people in USA got a system that helped them vote for what they want, not against who they don’t want. Imagine… :)
There is this little thing called “objective reality”. First past the post sucks, but it is objective reality. You should try taking it into account, some time.
Nope. Did not miss your point at all. You seemed to miss mine, and doubled down.
I’m not voting for liberal zionists under any circumstances. Your candidates and party suck and deserve to eat shit
…And that is how Trump became President.
Really is that so
Your frequent reminder from the local queer, leftist furry that if “voting didn’t work,” Republicans and billionaires wouldn’t spend billions of dollars on voter suppression and propaganda telling you that your vote doesn’t matter.
Do your part, waste billionaire money by voting anyway, by any means necessary~
That really depends on what you mean by “voting doesn’t work.”
First of all, the amount that billionaires spend on elections is tiny compared to their net worth. When Elon Musk was interfering in the elections in 2024 he was worth about $250 billion. What he spent on the election was about $250 million, which is 0.1% of his net worth. His wealth has gone up so quickly since that point that $250m is basically how much is wealth changes over the course of half a day. To put that in perspective, the one-time wealth tax proposed in California is 5% of a billionaire’s net worth. 5% of that would have been $5 billion, or about 33x as much as he spent to influence the presidential election.
So, the amounts being spent are small compared to the wealth of the people involved. That means you can’t judge voting as important based on this spending.
Also, what people mean most of the time when they say “voting doesn’t work” is that you can’t make significant changes to the system with your vote. That’s also often true. Let’s say the most important thing for you is to stop Israel from destroying Gaza. There is most likely no vote you can make that will have any effect on that outcome. The democratic and republican establishments are so in bed with Israel and AIPAC that it’s extremely likely that any candidate you could vote for has a pro-Israel position.
On the other hand, it’s clear how much damage Trump was able to do to the world, and especially to the US, and that wasn’t possible without him winning the latest election. Of course, because of the electoral college, etc. if you’re a voter in Oklahoma or Massachusetts, your vote for president basically doesn’t matter. There are too many other people with a voting preference in those states for your one vote to swing the electoral college the other direction. Instead it’s a few misinformed voters in Nevada or Philadelphia who get to decide the president.
So anyhow, voting can sometimes change things, but most of the time it’s going to be a very slow process of incremental changes with a lot of backsliding. The billionaires know that, so while they spend a bit on elections, what they spend is basically pocket change to them. It’s probably still a good idea to vote, but nobody should go into it expecting that voting is going to radically change the world.
It’s also why people should be doing a lot more than just voting. They can campaign for candidates, send them money, run for office themselves. More importantly, join unions when possible, protest in the streets whenever possible, and don’t merely go into a booth every 4 years, push a button, and think that it’s going to change much.
Dump the f’n Electoral College!!!
The popular vote isn’t better. The issue is having a first past the post system. We need something like ranked choice voting on a national scale.
We need a complete and fundamentally different structure to our political and economic systems.
Continuing to try and reform an intrinsically exploitative system which enables the systemic hierarchy of the owning class over the working class will never see progress towards the freedom of the working class.
Like what exactly? Something like Ranked Choice voting will solve a lot of the problems in our current political system. It removes the two party duopoly and replaces it with a system structured around coalitions, it removes the need to vote for “the lesser of two evils”, it weeds out extremist candidates, and voters get much better representation. It’s a very realistic, pragmatic approach to replace the electoral college with something vastly superior. The results from getting rid of first past the vote will be so immense that it can’t really be understated.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, you dumb fuck Americans should have voted for Vermin Supreme.
I’ll say it again, you dumb fuck Americans should have voted
Ftfy lol
Lol yeah, also that.
Seriously, though, he’s as qualified as almost any US President during my lifetime, and more intelligent than most of them. Vote Vermin.
Voting third party is also a vote for Republicans.
No, it’s not. This is a lie to keep people from actually breaking the system. Every election is just a game of wedge issues used to polarize the population into two camps. That’s not how we as a people work. They’ve been doing this for decades, and it’s worked. Women’s rights, gay rights, racial equality, trans rights. They’re always building their platform around minority groups (or foriegn issues) and being loud about it while not doing anything to foster the support they claim to offer. What is the actual population of trans students in the U.S.? I am an ally, but I can see what it is now. It’s virtue signaling. It’s manufacturing a battle, or choosing one, that will keep us engaged and supportive while also making sure they don’t have to do anything for labor rights or reining in corporate America and wealth.
“Vote blue no matter who” is a trap to signal that the establishment is just going to tell you what you want to hear. Anyone actually willing to pull the country the other way won’t win their primary. Period.
A third-party candidate can be an actual threat because they pull voters from everywhere. Regardless, I’m not playing the red vs. blue bullshit anymore. I’m voting with my heart and beliefs, and I hope others do the same before third parties are completely locked out of the digital environment the same way they are in the corporate news environment.
And don’t come at me in response with some hypothetical about one of those minority groups, as I’m sure you or others like you would, as if it’s a binary choice.
cope
