Look up the Bonus Army
“When examining the events of April through June 1989 in Beijing, there is a vast body of evidence including journalistic records, diplomatic cables, eyewitness accounts, and photographic documentation that directly addresses these claims.
The Death Toll and Use of Force
The claim that “no one died” or that only a few hundred died is contradicted by multiple sources. While the Chinese government’s official figure in 1989 was 241 deaths, other estimates are significantly higher:
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The Chinese Red Cross initially estimated 2,600 deaths (later retracted under government pressure).
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The British Ambassador at the time, Alan Donald, cited a source within the Chinese government estimating as many as 10,000 deaths.
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Foreign Journalists on the ground (from the AP, Reuters, and BBC) documented sustained gunfire and the use of armored personnel carriers against civilians on the roads leading to the square, such as Changan Avenue.
“Tank Man” and the Photos
The iconic “Tank Man” photo was captured by several photographers (including Jeff Widener and Charlie Cole) from the Beijing Hotel.
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The Photo is Authentic: It was shot on film and smuggled out of the country. There is also video footage of the encounter.
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The Outcome: The footage shows the man was not run over; the lead tank attempted to maneuver around him before he was pulled away by bystanders. His identity and ultimate fate remain unknown.
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The Direction of the Tanks: The tanks in the photo were actually moving away from Tiananmen Square, having already cleared it, though this does not negate the violence that occurred during the clearing process the night before.
Education and Information in China
The assertion that the incident is “freely taught” in China is demonstrably false.
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Censorship: The “Great Firewall” actively blocks search terms related to “June 4” or “Tiananmen.”
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Curriculum: The event is absent from textbooks, and public commemoration is strictly prohibited. Every year around the anniversary, security in the square is tightened and social media keywords are heavily scrubbed.
Comparative Incidents
While the United States has a history of state violence against protesters (such as the Kent State shootings in 1970, where 4 students were killed), the scale and the subsequent state response differ fundamentally:
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Scale: The casualties in Beijing involved thousands of troops and heavy armor, resulting in hundreds to thousands of deaths.
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Transparency: Incidents like Kent State are openly taught in American schools, are the subject of public records, and were heavily criticized in contemporary media without state-mandated deletion of the historical record.
Summary of Logic
The claim that “200 died and deserved it” while simultaneously claiming “no one died” is a logical contradiction. Furthermore, the claim that the event is “freely taught” is refuted by the very existence of the intensive digital and physical “Blackout” that occurs in China every June. The evidence confirms that a violent military crackdown occurred, resulting in significant loss of life.”
pretty much comports to what i know. the detractors of this can’t even get their stories straight.
can’t even mention it without the servers dropping players like flies.
People are upvoting slop because the slop regurgitated what they want to hear LMAO.
LLM slop.
Of the few hundred people that died in the riots and fighting, the square was dispersed peacefully. The truth about Tian’anmen is that hundreds of protestors and PLA officers were killed in Beijing that day as the PLA advanced towards the square, but that the square itself was evacuated peacefully, which matches leaked US cables and the CPC’s official stance on what it calls the “June 4th incident”. This is a rejection of the commonly reported story of 10,000 people being killed on the square itself, which originated from a British diplomat’s cable. Said diplomat was later confirmed to have evacuated well before.
Western nations intentionally sensationalize the quantity of deaths and the character of the events. This is also why Western Nations don’t frequently report on the South Korean Gwang-Ju massacre that occured around the same era, where the South Korean millitary murdered thousands of High School and College students protesting against Chun Do-Hwan’s dictatorship. All of what I said is backed up by the Wikipedia page for Tian’anmen Square Protests and Massacre, such as Alan Donald revising his estimate from 10,000 to the low thousands yet BBC continuing to report the 10,000 figure:
In a disputed cable sent in the aftermath of the events at Tiananmen, British Ambassador Alan Donald initially claimed, based on information from a “good friend” in the State Council of China, that a minimum of 10,000 civilians died,[237] claims which were repeated in a speech by Australian Prime Minister Bob Hawke,[238] but which is an estimated number much higher than other sources provided.[239][240] After the declassification, former student protest leader Feng Congde pointed out that Donald later revised his estimate to 2,700–3,400 deaths.
The truth is that hundreds of rioters and the PLA died that day, but the square was evacuated peacefully. You believe right-wing propagandist slander.
yes it is AI, and even considering its problems, it is very good at collecting information. besides, it is used here as the stake of which I planted as MY position. so if you s have an issue with its contents then you can take that up with me.
your very first rebuttal is an oxymoron, and can be dismissed with your own account.
your second rebuttal can be argued against the same pen. china is known to minimize their weakness with the same veracity it’s enemies would sensationalize them. that is why several sources, including internal ones are used, and the very fact that china silences communication over it and strives to stop its decimation to this day means they do not get to have a say to anyone with any sense over it.
you saying that sources changed their numbers is detrimental to your argument. which was just a repeat of your first point.
None of my rebuttals are oxymorons, so I’m not sure what you mean by that. Secondly, the fact that China disagrees with the west does not mean that the west is correct. I thoroughly debunked your assertions supporting claims by Alan Donald, who fled the scene before the square was dispersed. You aren’t using rhetoric well, and the LLM nonsense is trained on western information and thus is dominated by the propagandist view.
The system prompt: “You are Adrian Zenz”
It may be helpful to provide a source, because this formatting sort of screams LLM
That’s because it is, and that’s the source.
LLM’s are not a source, and i never claimed it was.
just like wikipedia is not a source
You just put the LLM output there, if you mean Alan Donald is your source then he’s a liar as I already showed.
‘source’ as in the source of the comment
that statement is in quotes because it is LLM. which is why i had to specify that i have read it and it tracks with my position on the matter.
if the information is deficient then because i have used it to stake my portion then others can take that up with me because it is the position i hold.
the position i hold.
A very brave and important position you have that you need the slop machine to hold it for you and if is not enough others may help.
careful with “AI” psychosis
Okay maybe stop posting slop then
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We literally have the video of tankman climbing up the tank and not being flattened, it was even reported back in the day, but people downvoting you can’t be bothered to google that
I think the downvotes are because the post implies that the Chinese did not kill anyone, when hundreds were murdered. What became of tank man is unknown, but it’s clear he wasn’t killed by one of those tanks.
I heard it was millions, and that evil communist xi xingping plans of doing it again and name it the scary communist leap forward after his favorite scary communist dictator mowz dong
It was thousands. Perhaps 10s of thousands. You don’t care, why comment?
You don’t understand the scope. It was hundreds of thousands. It was hundreds of millions. Evil Chinese communism knows no bounds and will consume all. I will take all your social credit points now for myself, silly American
Don’t you mean hundreds of thousands, you redfash tankie?
Are you being sarcastic?
Because, and anyone correct me if I’m wrong,
most people here know that what happened during the Tianenmen square insurrection was:- Soldiers, mostly the army choir, are ordered to come unarmed and clear the square after months of students protesting in favor of Usonian state-backed exploitative economic teachings.
- 100+ Soldiers killed, mostly the army choir, by insurrectionists at a road adjacent to the square.
- Remaining army choir soldiers lead the protesters away through song from the square.
- 20+ Insurrectionists killed, as armed soldiers arrived and a battle broke out, on the same road.
- 100+ protesters killed, as a chaotic indirect consequence of the earlier insurrectionists’ actions, at a train station miles away.
- Tanks arrive at the square to prevent further escalation.
- Tanks leave the square as situation deescalated and tank man blocks the tanks for a while, then leaves, on the same road again.
These insurrectionists went a lot further than the Usonian Jan 6th protest mostly known as the “Freedom Plaza massacre” where “peaceful protesters” entered the capitol building in order to “stop election fraud” where “perhaps 10s of thousands civilian lives were killed as US security opened fire at these peaceful protesters”, because unlike CIA-backed insurrectionists, these “peaceful protesters” were ordered by their higher ups to leave immediately instead of being encouraged to block the US army from arriving at Capitol Hill or attack the US army for that matter.
I didn’t know i was on a joke sub, I guess.
I think the numbers are a bit off - official Chinese figures were ~20 student protestors, ~20 police and army, and about 200 other protestors were killed.
Do you have a source for your estimate of deaths? 100+ is very ambiguous since it includes any number >100, which seems already beyond contention.
Probably the official CPC figure of 241 killed in total. Most of the serious estimates broadly agree - NSA said 180-500, and the Tiananmen Mothers organisation have identified 198 of the dead.
Since we’re evidently reading the same Wikipedia article, I’ll point out that those are among the lowest estimates on the page and the Beijing hospital record was 478 dead and 920 wounded.
But these are all very different numbers from what was commented.
why stop there? maybe they were hundreds of thousands, even millions!
And Iran, they killed 40 thousand!
Bro literally had a conversation with the soldier in the tank.
He said “why are you leaving the square already? Turn this thing around and finish off those colour revolution assholes!”
I keep reading this but I never found the source. Is this actually true?
I heard another version. According to that version, the man was a former soldier who recognized the tank model and wanted to know where was it built and who were inside it.
I was joking. Nobody knows what he said.
But it’s a fact that the video was from June 5th, the day after the violence, and that the tanks were leaving the square.
There is video of him being removed/taken away by others. He certainly was not crushed.
Only .ml you can encounter such degenerate brain rot
Since we have a lot of racist redditors coming over here catching bans for their historical ignorance about the June 4th incident, here are some resources:
- Notes for the 30th anniversary of the Tiannment incident.
- It wasn’t a massacre of peaceful students, but a skirmish between PLA soldiers and armed detachments from the pro-capitalist / free market reform movement. The protest movement, as evidenced by their own accounts, called for market liberalisation, and free market reforms, rallying around a replica of the statue of liberty. After the movement had been building in the square for seven weeks, unarmed soldiers were sent in to disperse the protesters, after which many soldiers were beaten to death, torched, and lynched. The New York Times death count went from 2600, to many thousands, to 8000, to tens of thousands. In reality only around ~200 (including soldiers) were killed or trampled, in smaller clashes outside the square. The on-scene New York Times reporter disavowed the article, especially about machine-gunning of protesters. A wikileaks cable from a US ambassador to the US state department, confirmed that no killings or machine-gunnings took place in the square.
- Latin American diplomat eyewitness account of June 3-4 events on Tiananmen Square wikileaks (PDF)
- There was a Spanish television crew that covered the entire Tiananmen Square incident as it unfolded. Their footage showed that there was no massacre. A few things worthy of pointing out - Liu Xiaobo and Hou Dejian, both student leaders of the Tiananmen protests, have been recorded as saying that they never saw anyone killed at the protests.
- The protest movement followed the line of “color revolutions”, in which the US tried to destabilize and create counter-revolutions in eastern Europe and Latin America after the fall of the USSR. The strategy was to stir division within and without, by inundating the media with news of massacres of “peaceful”, pro-capitalist / market reformers.
- The defeat of a counter revolution in China.
- Interviews from some of the student leaders.
- An account from a resident.
- Tiananmen Square “Massacre”, A Propaganda Hoax.
- The truth about the Tiananmen square protests
yeah and it s illegal to talk about iut in china cause the gouvernement did nothing wrong and it’s all just western propaganda. Omg you guys are crazy and delusional
It’s so illegal to talk about that it’s mandatory at university to learn about as part of the mandatory “outline of modern Chinese history” at university.
- The cause of socialism with Chinese characteristics continues to advance (1) The occurrence and subsidence of the political turmoil in 1989 The reasons for the turmoil: the emergence of corruption, the dissatisfaction of the people, the party’s mistakes in its work, and the destruction of hostile forces Summary after the turmoil subsides: stability is very important; “one center, two basic points” cannot be shaken; always pay attention to correcting mistakes; Unable to succumb to external pressures
Cool cool do you have what they say about the literal ethnic cleansing of ouïghour ? Or their annexation of Tibet ? Is it also because america is mean ?
It’s all right here itt, if you can be bothered.
Yeah such a great country that non of you live there and you eat what they disclosed as soft power like it was fact. You talk about a country with election like it was the better one and dont even seem to realize the stupidity of your position. And dont get me wrong I’m not here saying usa is perfect but for real yes or no do u have more freedom in china than usa ?
Oh y mean the country they loan money to are happy to say the money giver did nothing wrong. Must be a racy then.
Also of s fucking hilarious cause the photo of the tank man is ban in china while the one about the ice incident was published everywhere in America but yeah sure no difference at all. America bad CCP good
So your hypothesis is that every single muslim nation on earth is so corrupt that China was able to buy their complicity in a genocide? How do you explain the US completely failing to do the same despite having more money?
Euh idk mb the non stop increase of war the us fough there ?
A source without Adrian Zenz to be more precise.
It s well documented. You are delusional for thinking a gouvernement that declare and displace troop from the fucking military for a protest was just to appease the situation
Lol. Lmao, even. You’ve shared debunked propaganda that doesn’t cite any proper sources. I’ll refer you to Dessalines’s thread about what actually happened in Tiananmen.
Though while we’re here, let’s address Tibet, shall we?
First, the people of Tibet lived as serfs doing forced labor for the Dalai Lama and other elites. https://www.historicly.net/p/tibet-china-and-the-violent-reaction https://redsails.org/friendly-feudalism/
In the second one, they also go further into the history and abuse serfs, peasants, and lower-class monks endured, and has the following:
Whatever wrongs and new oppressions introduced by the Chinese after 1959, they did abolish slavery and the Tibetan serfdom system of unpaid labor. They eliminated the many crushing taxes, started work projects, and greatly reduced unemployment and beggary. They established secular schools, thereby breaking the educational monopoly of the monasteries. And they constructed running water and electrical systems in Lhasa.
Heinrich Harrer (later revealed to have been a sergeant in Hitler’s SS) wrote a bestseller about his experiences in Tibet that was made into a popular Hollywood movie. He reported that the Tibetans who resisted the Chinese “were predominantly nobles, semi-nobles and lamas; they were punished by being made to perform the lowliest tasks, such as laboring on roads and bridges. They were further humiliated by being made to clean up the city before the tourists arrived.” They also had to live in a camp originally reserved for beggars and vagrants — all of which Harrer treats as sure evidence of the dreadful nature of the Chinese occupation.
The PRC liberated Tibet, abolished slavery and serfdom, and built modern infrastructure. Tibetans are far better off now than they were then. Those who resisted this were nobles and reactionaries.
After he was overthrown, the Dalai Lama also received money from the CIA to train guerillas. https://web.archive.org/web/20251104164452/https://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/02/world/world-news-briefs-dalai-lama-group-says-it-got-money-from-cia.html
The other was taken before the murder of several civilians.
The video very clearly shows the tanks leaving the square
The image is misleading, but the CPC itself acknowledged at least 241 deaths. Also, you cannot find information about the incident while in China. Can personally confirm.
Also, you cannot find information about the incident while in China. Can personally confirm.
Yeah no information, it’s only taught as part of the mandatory “outline of modern Chinese history” at university.
In that link, they refer to it as:
“The 1989 political turmoil and subsidence.”
That is a really weird way to call a massacre, don’t you think?
Please we all know that the Government hides the search results in China if you look for it. Or are you going to deny that?
Like, why lie?
China bans Tiananmen Square-related web search terms https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-18321548
https://www.businessinsider.com/words-china-banned-from-search-engines-after-tiananmen-square-2014-6
Because massacre is poor categorization of what was a violent clash between rioters and the military acting as riot police. Like why pretend to be a leftists when you’re a Canadian settler shitlib. Clearly not very good at categorising things. Also when did I deny their were restrictions around what is a very sensitive event that had western backing? All I said was that it is taught about as part of a mandatory course at university. The idea it’s fully blacked out is western chauvinist fantasy and honestly not even a very creative one. You are not very intelligent are you?
Go get em, Mr. Shlong!
You know there are photos of the dead people right? And videos?
Canadian Seltler shitllib? Hahaha. Cute, friend. You know nothing about me.
Nice that you went and checked my history as to come up with something to side track my points. I am not sure if you are a CCP shill or just brainwashed in propaganda.
Also, you are moving the goal post, friend. You told the guy you responded to that the Tiananmen Square masacre was not censored. It is. That is my point and provided proof that it is and I can do that without lowering to your level of insults. Clearly, I hit a nerve, it is okay Comrade. Be happy.
There is a reason why put a link in Chinese in an English speaking forum without translaltion.
You know there are photos of the dead people right? And videos?
People die when rioters (whose leaders did interviews explaining their plan to incite massive violence and flee to America) clash with the military did I deny that? It was categorically not a massacre.
You know nothing about me.
From replying to you before I know you’re Canadian and a self proclaimed lib thus 90% chance you’re white thus a settler. So taking it all together Canadian settler shitlib.
Nice that you went and checked my history as to come up with something to side track my points. I am not sure if you are a CCP shill or just brainwashed in propaganda.
Again didn’t check your history we’ve simply talked before. Also holy chauvinism really reinforcing the whole settler shitlib. And it’s CPC not CCP.
Also, you are moving the goal post, friend. You told the guy you responded to that the Tiananmen Square masacre was not censored. It is.
Massive twisting of what was said. He said you couldn’t find any information when in fact it is part of the mandatory university course which is all I pointed out.
Again I must ask are you genuinely unintelligent?
You’re a racist Han bigot. Don’t bother relying. I don’t communicate with stupid racists.
I’m not Han lmao. The irony of you making a racist assumption calling me racist. 🤣
You are referring to unarmed protestors against fully armed military, with tanks? LOL, aha. Damn those rioters attacking the military with their own blood, splattered on the square. Those demons!
Not white. You know nothing about me. Keep Shilling, Comrade. Oh, we talked before? Is that so? Oh, fair, but I do not remember you, nor care to know you. It is true that I am a Liberal and I will give you the decency of not being as petty as you, since I do not have to rely on insults when I have facts and sources.
Again, all you have proven is that I hit a nerve. Can’t even take the slightest of critism.
So, here is the difference of the searches that people did even back in the day, noticed the difference between the searches in Chinese VS the ones outside of China. Thus proving OPs and my point.
For anyone to look, like this is nothing new. This is how China would change results on actual internet searches. https://imgur.com/a/vbkFA
The university course on your link is reframed, obviously. That is the whole point on censorship. I can tell by the other curses and the content that a lot of things are reframed as well. Again, there is reason why you posted a Chinese link in an English focused site. We all know how idealogues think.
Anyway, stop lying. That point remains.
Lastly, on this segment of this documentary, Tank Man, these Asian students claim to not even recognize the famous “Tank Man” when asked.
So, either they do not know, which I fully doubt, if you hear what she says, or they do know, which is the case,but do not want to publicly discuss it on camera and risk getting any type of trouble. Take your pick.
From 2008: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuuddurPLV8&t=86
Rely in common sense comrade. Have a great one, Cheers.
Lastly, on this segment of this documentary, Tank Man, these Asian students claim to not even recognize the famous “Tank Man” when asked.
I genuinely can’t believe a person can be this dumb. Did you ever consider the fact that Tank Man is completely irrelevant for history and it’s only a fucking image for propaganda? Why anyone knows about the image? Because is the image about the square that appears when people talk about the event. This guy is completely irrelevant.
You are referring to unarmed protestors against fully armed military, with tanks? LOL, aha. Damn those rioters attacking the military with their own blood, splattered on the square. Those demons!
They literally immolated and lynched military guards to start the riot. You are extremely fucking arrogant for how little you understand anything.
when I have facts and sources
Lmao. What you actually have is a chauvinist fantasy and an immense arrogance.
Can’t even take the slightest of critism.
you have provided no criticism just a vast misrepresentation of what I said and the events in question.
So, here is the difference of the searches that people did even back in the day, noticed the difference between the searches in Chinese VS the ones outside of China. Thus proving OPs and my point.
Again not what we were talking about he said there was no information implying and perpetuating the nonsense lie that the date/event is scrubbed from history which is factually incorrect in the same way saying Winnie the pooh is banned is factually incorrect.
The university course on your link is reframed, obviously. That is the whole point on censorship. I can tell by the other curses and the content that a lot of things are reframed as well. Again, there is reason why you posted a Chinese link in an English focused site. We all know how idealogues think.
Chauvinism.
Lastly, on this segment of this documentary, Tank Man, these Asian students claim to not even recognize the famous “Tank Man” when asked.
He’s famous because who he is and what he did are completely reframed in the west as some sacrificial martyr jumping Infront of tanks (generally with the implication that he was ran over) whereas in reality he was a random man who wanted the tanks to return to the square and was ushered off by passers by not really a revolutionary figure or particularly relevant to the event as a whole. You people are so insufferably arrogant your vision and imagination must be reality.
Rely in common sense comrade.
“Just believe the western propoganda”. I’m no comrade of yours you Hitlerite settler.
The nerve of saying can personally confirm a complete bullshit lmao.
I was referring to blocked articles specifically about the incident on the internet. I did not know about the curated version taught in universities.
I can already picture you going to uni, running into a history class, and screaming about fake news (In english of course lol)
Remember who didn’t stop for you
Oddly this isn’t what officers mean when they say ‘weaponizing a vehicle’.
Cop car was stopped. People started jumping onto the car or getting in front of it, and even on top of the hood. Blocking its way.
Cop car tried to move a bit a couple of times, and people would not get out of the way. That headline is of course leaving context out.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/embed/xzx1OAVFCm0?t=10
Honeslty, what do people realistically think it would happen if you jumped in front of a car? And then start attacking the car. Do you expect for the drivers to just wait until they start breaking windows? I am not American, and for the life of me, I do not understand the lack of logic here and watching the video VS the headline is like two different stories are being told all based on political bias.
surprised pikachu.JPEG
It’s okay for the bad person to do the bad thing because what are you stupid? If you’re a victim it’s your fault! You can’t just ignore all the context. You’re supposed to ignore all the context EXCEPT the part where they weren’t nice to the bad person!
Literally what tankman did to a tank and still he walked away. Imagine attacking an evil seeseepee tank that is monitoring every citizen individually in case they insult putin or whatever, climbing on top of it and everything and you just, walk away after??
I love whenever someone posts the “tank man” photo because the liberals always reveal themselves like roaches scattering across the room when a lightswitch is turned on. Mod ban hammer squish them all plz and thank you.
I love your portfolio.
aww, you’re sweet, thank you.
You are so very welcome. Thank you for sharing it with us!
Tank Man was disappeared after this. A Reagan admin official claimed he was executed after this.
Some other guy claims he shared a prison cell with him and he was supposedly still imprisoned as of 2017.
The only people claiming that he wasn’t killed or arrested is the Chinese Communist Party.
/doubt
As far as I know (and I’ve looked), the only actual evidence of his fate is that, at the end of the video, he is ushered off the street by civilians in streetwear. From there, people seem to make conclusions based on an overall impression of the Chinese government as comically evil, rather than any specific or credible evidence (or indeed any evidence at all) related to this guy in particular.
Which is somewhat understandable, don’t get me wrong – no one investigates everything they hear. We try to gauge the overall picture and then, once we’re convinced (rightly or wrongly), we tend to accept or reject new information on the basis of that picture. Everyone does this. I do it. That’s why US propaganda is so effective. It works by sheer volume and repetition. Once that “comically evil Chinese government” picture is established, people believe new details consistent with it. And if you have a compliant media, that picture may never be challenged enough to dislodge it. Some of the stories are finally starting to collapse now – not even the US state department claims there was a genocide in Xinjiang anymore, for example – but it will take a while for that to ripple out to people.
Thank you for speaking your truth. I need you to keep doing this and showing the people how evil China is.
Because goddamn am I going to make a lot of money off my Chinese investments because of people like you lmfao
I don’t even hate China. It’s possible to understand that US Propaganda is a problem and also understand that both the US and China have committed some very deploy atrocities.
It’s possible to understand that US Propaganda is a problem
So why you believe them?
China have committed some very deploy atrocities.
So focus on real ones and not the bullshit ones.
I don’t believe human rights violations committed against Muslims in China is bullshit.
Y’all just believe whatever foreign governments say? I bet you believe that Israel isn’t committing genocide against Palestine.
We have endless footage of the genocide in Gaza despite the massive surveillance from Israel, we have no footage of any genocide in Xinjiang, serious allegations like that need evidence
So if Israel had only captured Palestinians and put them in forced labor camps or sterilized women you wouldn’t believe that either? Human rights violations only count if you blow up a building I guess.
I don’t understand your logic.
the only evidence we have come from clearly biases sources; either directly from the western gov’ts or organizations that are enabled by western gov’ts.
evidence from gaza comes from some random guy on the streets with a smartphone.
Gaza is the most controlled strip of land on Earth, yet we have endless video of carnage
Xinjiang is a tourist mecca that saw 300 million smartphone-wielding visitors from around the world last year, yet we have zero evidence of abuse
Make it make sense
If you want to play a game send me a source of the humans rights violations and I’ll try to find where their are citing Adrian Zenz.
If you believe in anything Adrian Zenz has to say you are a fool.
Can you tell me about why he is untrustworthy? I’m arguing with a lot of people in the comments but that’s just people being jerks without giving any real reasoning or arguments, but I’m open to learning about other points of view on many topics if it’s a respectful conversation.
EDIT: I double checked the Amnesty International report and it doesn’t seem to source Zenz from what I can tell.
Their real report is this one is quite extensive.
The last paragraph is:
In 2022, a report assessing the human rights situation in the Uyghur Region by the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) documented serious human rights violations against Uyghur and other predominantly Muslim ethnic minority communities, corroborating the findings of Amnesty International and other credible organizations. The UN report concluded that these violations may constitute crimes under international law, including crimes against humanity.
The report is here.
The report cite Zenz 2 times directly and probably more indirectly.
Can you tell me about why he is untrustworthy?
He is a propagandist that works for Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation. And What Dr. Zenz has to say about gaza? NOTHING in fact he’s spend his time criticizing Palestine: prints
I double checked the Amnesty International report and it doesn’t seem to source Zenz from what I can tell.
They fucking source him repeatedly.
On the other hand, you seem to prefer to listen only to what the governments in red say:
Well damn, if the Reagan admin is said it, who am I to argue?
It’s not like the Reagan administration would lie, right?
Im not saying Reagan admins were telling the truth but it’s a bit odd that no one was ever able to track him down and the CCP has banned the footage.
But you’re right. I’m sure the CCP has never disappeared anyone and it’s not like the CCP would lie, right?
it’s not like the CCP would lie, right?
They sure as shit wouldn’t just give away information to an antagonistic and anti-communist foreign government, especially after a century of being colonized by them.
Lol, Alex Jones arguments: “I’m not claiming anything, I’m just saying it’s odd!”
that no one was ever able to track him down
TBF, if you’ve watched the video, they might not even have a reason to track him down
Imagine if you’re investigating the after math of this, and the tank driver says “he was angry and annoying but that’s about it” and then what, you’re going spend all your time and resources hunting down some dude whose alleged (but unspecified) crime would probably just be somewhere from 3-months-community-service to 5 years prison? like what are we even talking about here? What kind of prison time and FBI manhunts are common for “blocking traffic” in the US?
like no shit they didn’t find him, they probably gave up looking after a week, if they even looked at all!
Some guy in the US and some unspecified guy of unknown age or location both claimed completely contradictory things, therefore the idea that neither of those things happened is false. Checkmate tankies!
Are you really that fucking stupid?
Are you so fucking stupid that you think the CCP would ban this footage and just let the guy walk away?
“Why should I need to back up my claims when already assuming my claims are right?!”
You’re the one making the claim. Show evidence that anything bad happened to this guy. Because I saw the video of him stopping the entire line of tanks, climbing on top of the tank, knocking on the tank’s entry hatch, having a conversation with the driver, and then walking away.
The armed soldier in the literal tank literally let the guy walk away. Who stopped him?
If the Chinese wanted to make an example of him, wouldn’t they publicize his execution?
Why turn him into a martyr?
A martyr for what? There were already plenty of dead to martyr, what difference would he make?
I didn’t think there were any public trials and executions though?
You thought wrong. So back to the question, what cause would he become a martyr for, that the other dead couldn’t be martyrs for?
While making his whereabouts fizzle out like that makes people not idolize that man, as we have seen that when you put the face of every mass shooter in the front page of every news outlet it just inspired a few more copycats.
I don’t think the CPC nor anyone ever knew his identity. 1989 was an era before mass surveillance. The only evidence that exists is this grainy analog footage shot from a mile away, and it includes no facial features. Do you know how many ~5’6" men with black hair there were in Beijing?
my pet theory is that he’s alive today and doesn’t even know the US has a cool photo of him
Even if they did lose the person after escorting him out, not making the person a big deal certainly helps in not encouraging copycats
Here’s from Wikipedia in the aftermath of the 1989 protests:
The 21 most-wanted student leaders’ faces and descriptions were often broadcast on television.[262][263] Photographs with biographies of the leaders followed in this order: Wang Dan, Wuer Kaixi, Liu Gang, Chai Ling, Zhou Fengsuo, Zhai Weimin, Liang Qingdun, Wang Zhengyun, Zheng Xuguang, Ma Shaofang, Yang Tao, Wang Zhixing, Feng Congde, Wang Chaohua, Wang Youcai, Zhang Zhiqing, Zhang Boli, Li Lu, Zhang Ming, Xiong Wei, and Xiong Yan.
Copycats…for the next Tiennamen square clash?
That more North Korean Style. The Chinese are all about saving face which means sweeping problems under the rug.
Least racist westerner
Lol, that was perhaps the least controversial thing I’ve ever posted that got removed by a mod.
It was removed because it was racist
That’s a bold lie to tell.
We can see it in the modlog. If you don’t see how that’s racist then that’s a blindspot to work on.
Way to admit “I say way more racist stuff usually”
Ngl can’t wait for your countries to fall back into ruin and be left in the past where they belong, so the world can move forward
Post less racist bullshit then
Lemmy turning into a big propaganda machine always trying to pit us all against each other rage baiting Europeans vs Americans vs Asians vs etc. if we could all stop and smell the flowers we would be stronger.
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I came here not because of the API change…“you here” doesn’t apply to me. Sorry you don’t like my opinion!
Your opinion is stupid
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So close to understanding the razor, but yet.
I am against US imperialism, but I will defend it with my life because it personally benefits me at the expense of the third world. I can’t imagine a world where the institutions of my country aren’t built on plundering others. My only wish is to get a larger piece of the imperialism pie.
Go back to reddit
I have a lot more trust in the communist party of China than the fucking Reagan administration.
I don’t get why you would trust either? Both are shady and know liars.
I’m not saying that the Chinese government is blameless or full of saints but comparing the two is ludicrous.
Like, having a discussion about this specific historical fact, comparing it to something that happened in the US a few months ago is really pathetic. Even if we took the western propaganda at face value, this was 40 years ago and the US police alone killed twice as many citizens last year. And that’s just the cops executing people on the street not to mention the historical injustice of the US “justice system” and it’s self reported by the cops so when they disappear people, it doesn’t count.
You expect me to trust a government that pulls that about how evil and authoritarian their ideological enemies are?
Not at all! I mean that in rejecting Western Propaganda, it feels as though many people are blindly believing China and we should be questioning both.
I mean, of course we should. But that doesn’t mean statements from the two have equal weight.
The US and all it’s propaganda apparatuses have not only a bias but an unhinged one. The general common knowledge is if you see something in western media about any non-western government or people, assume the opposite is true and you’ll be right 95% of the time.
No, most of us just refuse to believe in CIA propaganda and do their work for spreading it.
Explain to me, what would the goal of the CPC be? What were the goals of the insurrectionists? What would be the outcome of the success of the insurrectionists?
And while we’re at it, do you support the Jan 6 rioters?
US government: known liars according to experience
The CPC: known liars according to the US government
Why do so many of you believe the CCP is better than ICE
Because even Western reporters who were there debunk the myth of what happened.
As far as genocide, Sayragul Sauytbay (basically the sole source of “proof”), has also been debunked six ways til Sunday, and even admits that she hasn’t even witnessed these events firsthand. Gee, funny that the US/West lied about Vietnam, lied about Korea, Lied about Iraq, lied about Iran, lied about Cuba, lied about Venezuela, … literally genocided millions (with actual proof) using the Jakarta Method, coups, embargoes, sanctions, assassinations, color revolutions, etc. Surely they wouldn’t lie about China, riiiiight?
are you all bots?
We’re bots because we actually read less biased accounts of what happened instead of regurgitating western propaganda?
At this point the US has murdered more caribbean fishermen in this last year than the people that died in Tiananmen square and certainly much more civilians in Iran, including more than a hundred kids in a single strike.
But i guess China just as bad as the US 🤷
The Chinese Red Cross estimated 2,600 fatalities. That’s a lot of fishermen.
Took me all of 3 minutes to Google this, open up Wikipedia and read:
The Society’s leadership from the 1920s-1940s was closely tied with the American and British Red Cross societies, the Kuomintang government and the Shanghai business community.
Took me all of 1 second to realize that the massacre happened after the 1940s.
Then it took me all of an additional minute to read what happened after the 1940s in the Wikipedia article:
“The Chinese Communist Party re-organized the Red Cross organization in Beijing and was admitted to the International Federation in 1950.”
Lots of places claim this, I followed some circular sourcing to different newspapers but no primary source, if you have an actual primary source share it, otherwise it’s a matter of whether I trust western media to report accurately on a color revolution, and of course I don’t.
If you find evidence from the Chinese Red Cross I’m listening.
I haven’t been able to find one legitimate site confirming it was debunked. All the sites at the top of my search are .cn sites and I’m skeptical of those as they have a reason to be dishonest.
The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is a group of Chinese diaspora living in the west, and they compiled an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims. The majority of their sourcing is western, and they cite official Chinese government writing and white papers when relevant.
I also recommend reading the UN report as well as (especially) China’s response to it, which eclipses it in size and detail.These are the most relevant accusations and responses without delving into straight up fantasy like Adrian Zenz, Christian nationalist and professional propagandist for the Victims of Communism Foundation, does. Zenz’ work has been thoroughly discredited, yet is supported by western media for its utility in fearmongering. An example is lying about 8.7% of new IUDs as 80%, to back up claims of “forced sterilization,” from this chart:
I recommend you go through these resources.
Thank you, I’m incredibly skeptical but I will legitimately read these with an open mind.
I suggest you read with a fine-toothed comb, then.
Tank Man was disappeared after this
It must be so easy being an anti communist, you can just make up whatever unsourced claims you like and expect people to believe it
Some other guy
Oh well, if “some guy” said it…
So if China is so nice, what is the identity of the “Tank Man”? Why can’t we find him? It is like he “disappeared”.
Well, it is undisputed that the CPC censors all mentions of the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre. Both public and private - the US may lie, but private free speech is still allowed. So can we please stop pretending that China in its current form is not doing evil?
Both public and private
The local CPC deputies have broken into my house multiple times for mentioning it when talking politics with friends (sarcasm). You people are so unserious
From https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2025/05/what-is-the-tiananmen-crackdown/
Alliance vice-chairperson Chow Hang-tung and 25 activists were prosecuted in 2020 simply because they insisted on lighting candles in Victoria Park despite the government prohibiting the vigil that year, ostensibly on Covid-19 grounds. In 2021, after the police banned the vigil once again, Chow was arrested on 4 June after encouraging people on social media to commemorate the crackdown by lighting candles.
Ultimately, Chow was jailed for 22 months for taking part and inciting others to take part in an unauthorised assembly. She and fellow Hong Kong Alliance leaders Lee Cheuk Yan and Albert Ho have also been charged with “inciting subversion” under the National Security Law and all three face a maximum sentence of life imprisonment.
Firstly that’s public.
Secondly
for taking part and inciting others to take part in an unauthorised assembly
Thirdly amnesty famous for publishing the nayirah testimony without any factchecking or corroboration
Fourthly you Brits are really butthurt about losing your colony and your bootlickers being a shunned minority.
Amnesty always manufactures consent for shit, but assuming this is true, why would any government be okay with people commemorating an attempt to overthrow them? You’re so unserious
Some of us here have expiriance with communist regimes beyond simping them online.
But on a common sense level; you really believe a government which sends tanks onto unarmed student protest does not prosecute someone who attempts to block it?
I wouldn’t expect a Polish nationalist to have a good grasp on anything but “unarmed student protest” is an entirely misleading categorisation of a violent riot that brutally murdered multiple soldiers who were simply standing guard before the clashes broke out and who’s leaders did interviews specifically detailing their plans to incite massive violence and flee to America.
Look at the Wujek mine riot, miners were attacking militia with sharpened rebars and loudly threatening to lynch the captured militamen, but when single inexperienced detachment of militia which shouldn’t even been there opened fire (and despite entire chain of command from direct commander to minister Kiszczak and gen Jaruzelski absolutely forbidding this) it’s suddenly example of horrible martyrology and one of founding myths of comprador III RP.
Of course hundreds of workers being murdered in the prewar Poland and dozens (maybe hundreds) of thousands of social murders after 1989 are not mentioned ever.
EDIT: are you all bots? Why do so many of you believe the CCP is better than ICE? Like they aren’t disappearing people and committing genocide but sure.
No bots. This is one of the very few corners of the web inhabited by people whose ideologies make them rightfully skeptical of CIA propaganda narratives.
The “Uyghur genocide” has been thoroughly debunked, and the “disappeared” woman featured in that PBS article from 2021 was alive and well in 2022.[1]
“In August [2022], International Tennis Federation (ITF) president David Haggerty told CNN he spoke to Peng about six weeks ago and she appears to be safe.” https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/07/tennis/wta-return-china-peng-shuai-suspension-spt-intl/index.html ↩︎
Y’all are bananas. I get the US is shady as hell but to blindly believe China doesn’t commit atrocities is insane.
It has not been debunked and when I google it the only sites I find saying it’s a hoax are Chinese government sites.
https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/china/deepseek-ai-china-uyghur-genocide-b2697425.html
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/5/14/the-faux-anti-imperialism-of-denying-anti-uighur
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounders/china-xinjiang-uyghurs-muslims-repression-genocide-human-rights
Well if a “Reagan admin official” and “some other guy” said it, then it must be true!
I’ve never understood why some leftists wanna suck the dick of a superpower authoritarian state. That’s not leftism, you’re just a class traitor who defends the ruling class of a place you don’t even live in. Get some perspective, ffs…
That’s not leftism, you’re just a class traitor who defends the ruling class of a place you don’t even live in.
There’s not one Chinese person here, everyone is American/European white trash in lemmy.
Wtf is this?
No need to bring in misogyny/homophobia. The reason socialists support socialist countries is pretty self-evident, we defend the ruling class in China because the ruling class in China is the working class.
authoritarian state
Authoritarian is a meaningless pejorative used by the unintelligent and uneducated to avoid class analysis. Every state exercises coercion. The question is which class benefits. China’s legal system has demonstrably reduced corruption and constrained capital’s excesses in ways other (Western) systems have not. If your ideal “leftism” cannot account for who holds power and how law serves that power, then your ideal is simply fantasy.
I gotta admit I chuckled a bit when I saw where this was posted…
Why?
I guess the downvotes know exactly why ^^
Well let’s say tanks are pictured…
There are 457 upvotes.and 93 downvotes at the time of writing. Tanks being pictured isn’t ironic at all, considering this meme is pro-China and anti-US.
Well it’s tankies vs nazis, both authoritarian. I don’t think there’s good guys pictured… Yet the side that drives war tanks are hinted to be good guys… And well we are on lemmy.ml
I mean on the other hand Marx was anarchist (though with the exception to have authoritarianism as means to change the system, which I don’t agree with, because it’s also unrealistic to assume that people in charge just throw away their power).
I think having Authoritarianism no matter how, just gravitates towards people that should definitely be not in charge. We see this everywhere. Power corrupts and dehumanizes.
Marx was the polar opposite of an anarchist in many ways. Marx supported collectivization into one unified system, anarchists support communalization into countless decentrally linked systems. Marx supported dialectical and historical materialism, anarchists often fall into idealist and subjectivist trappings. Marx developed scientific socialism, while anarchism is largely utopian. Anarchists can be good comrades, but Marx was not an anarchist.
Power is not a supernatural corrupting force, this too is an idealist argument.
It’s good for workers to have state authority, rather than capitalists. Both have authority, but communists use it to uplift the people and defeat the Nazis.
I have yet to see an authoritarian “state” that I consider communist (and that just doesn’t give it a bad name and fuel for western propaganda) that “uplifts the people” (and doesn’t repress them)…
It’s true though, that it’s probably better than capitalistic states (mostly, because all the systems we have are a mixture of all kinds of ideologies), I think China as example certainly does a better job than the USA at this point (various metrics, like addiction, mental/physical health etc. backs this as well).
Non the less, communism in its core is anti-authoritarism.
There have been many socialist states, both past and present. Examples include the PRC, Cuba, Vietnam, DPRK, Laos, and the former USSR. In all of these countries, life expectancy, literacy rates, economic democratization, and more have skyrocketed. Life expectancies in the USSR and PRC doubled. Using only the USSR as an example, as it’s the classic one pointed to as “authoritarian,” it’s clear that analyzing the facts at hand points to tremendous success.
The USSR had steady and consistent economic growth, and provided free, high quality education and healthcare, full employment, cheap or free housing, and fantastic infrastructure and city planning that still lasts to this day despite capitalism neglecting it. This rapid development resulted in dramatic democratization of society, reduced disparity, doubling of life expectancy, tripling of functional literacy rates to 99.9%, and much more. Living in the 1930s famine would not have been good, but it was the last major famine outside of wartime because the soviets ended famine in their countries.
Literacy rates, societal guarantees in the 1936 constitution, reports on the healthcare system over time, and more are good sources for these claims.
The USSR brought dramatic democratization to society. First-hand accounts from Statesian journalist Anna Louise Strong in her book This Soviet World describe soviet elections and factory councils in action. Statesian Pat Sloan even wrote Soviet Democracy to describe in detail the system the soviets had built for curious Statesians to read about, and today we have Professor Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance to reference.
When it comes to social progressivism, the soviet union was among the best out of their peers, so instead we must look at who was actually repressed outside of the norm. In the USSR, it was the capitalist class, the kulaks, the fascists who were repressed. This is out of necessity for any socialist state. When it comes to working class freedoms, however, the soviet union represented a dramatic expansion. Soviet progressivism was documented quite well in Albert Syzmanski’s Human Rights in the Soviet Union.
The truth, when judged based on historical evidence and contextualization, is that socialism was the best thing to happen to Russia in the last few centuries, and its absence has been devastating.
Death rates spiked:
And wealth disparity skyrocketed alongside the newly impoverished majority:
Capitalism brought with it skyrocketing poverty rates, drug abuse, prostitution, homelessness, crime rates, and lowered life expectancy. An estimated 7 million people died due to the dissolution of socialism and reintroduction of capitalism, and the large majority of post-soviet citizens regret its fall. A return to socialism is the only path forward for the post-soviet countries.
When you look at the US Empire and western Europe as having higher quality of life than the USSR, you are looking at the benefits of imperialism, colonialism, and neocolonialism and wishing the USSR also practiced this, instead of helping liberate colonies and the global south. Russia in particular was a semi-feudal backwater in 1917, and made it to space 5 decades later. The USSR was not the picture of wealth, but was for its time the picture of development and rapid progress.
It isn’t the socialist countries giving western countries ammo for propaganda, it’s just western propagandists twisting them. Communism is pro-worker authority, not against authority in general, as it’s through worker-authority that class and the state can be abolished down the line alone.
Oh no, how do I tell the millions of Chinese communists that you, the main character of life who clearly hasn’t read enough Marx, don’t consider them to be communist
Fucking lol
Any american will tell you our government is trash and oppressive. And yet when we point out that so is Chinas government you get pure unadulterated propaganda like this shit. And then call us brainwashed.
Lol
Remind me again about how installing suicide nets and making workers sign waivers saying if they kill themselves it isn’t the factories fault is “workers having state authority”
I bet I’ll just get banned though huh. A lot easier than actually using facts.
Go back to reddit
“My government is trash and oppressive yet I believe everything they say about the PRC”
China has a lower suicide rate than Switzerland, the UK, the US, Taiwan, etc. Suicide nets exist, but suicide isn’t nearly as widespread as you make it out to be.
Liberalism, famously not “authoritarian” despite sending riot cops to beat down schoolkids for being against Palestinian genocide
You really think those are “liberalists”?!
Why do you guys have such a black/white view of the world? There’s more room than just authoritarians, and authoritarianism and liberalism are somewhat antagonists anyways.
Lol. “Why are you so black and white? Don’t you know that there’s liberalism(the good guys) and everyone else is authoritarian(bad guys)!”
Hell yeah dude, you’re 12
Ah you’re also not missing in the party. Nah I’m not, I’m just realistic…
Go back to reddit
Lol bold af to post this on ml.
To be clear this was also before the whole Uyghur thing!
I’m curious what do you think the ‘Uyghur thing’ is.
What is the bottom photo?
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Renée Good was her name
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