Where’s the car accident incident report rates?
Raw incident numbers would not express the full picture since incidents are both more common and more severe at greater speed.
Raw autism numbers would not express the full picture since autism diagnoses are both more common and more severe after vaccination.
Turns out you can say whatever you want if you just ignore the raw numbers
ironic
You can’t claim that without the actual data.
Show me the fucking rule, buddy. As a matter of actual fact, you can’t tell me what I can and can’t claim.
Oh, well yeah it’d go up where the cameras were posted, how is this surprising?
And without speed cameras….how did they prove this?
I hope you’re joking? Traffic counters (the two little black wires that you often drive over) can track vehicle speeds. Even if they didn’t do that, the traffic cameras could still track average speeds without needing to issue fines.
A traffic counter cannot differentiate one driver from another so it can register the same driver multiple times. What looks like a percentage increase could be the same speeders you had before registering multiple times.
Traffic cameras getting a rough estimate of speed is plausible, but if they can differentiate vehicles accurately enough not to register the same driver multiple times, wouldn’t that be a speed camera which would have been illegal to use here?
Correct, they cannot differentiate between drivers, and neither can the speed cameras still in use for speed tracking.
But the point that pedestrians and kids going to school where these cameras were will care about is numbers of speeders, not if its Joe vs Brenda who’s doing the speeding. If before there was much less speeding and now there’s more, those kids are at a higher risk.
Even if Joe took a different route, one away from high-risk areas like school zones, and didn’t change his habits, who gives a fuck?? There is lower risk for accidents in the areas where kids are being dropped off or walking through. I advocated for additional safety zones around other high-profile zones too - high volume trail crossings, libraries, major parks, waterfront zones, etc. Protect the biggest risk areas from speeding and people might get used to driving slower
Please read the label on the y axis, then my post again.
The percent of high end speeders? Yes, the y axis is the percentage of drivers at or above 15km/hr above the speed limit. Each dot represents one of their monitoring locations.
A traffic counter cannot differentiate one driver from another so it can register the same driver multiple times. What looks like a percentage increase could be the same speeders you had before registering multiple times.
Again, this raw data is aggregated meaning they’re not tracking it by license plate number. This is flat, X vehicles went through, here is the average speed. That doesn’t change from 2020 to now, meaning the ONLY stat we actually care about in real life (how fast are the cars moving on the road in front of a school) went down as cameras were installed, and are now going back up after cameras were removed.
I’m not sure what I’m missing or what you’re trying to imply.
You are making my point. X number of vehicles. There’s no differentiation so it can see the same vehicle multiple times. Someone’s speeding one can repeat the action and be counted as multiple speeders rather than multiple incidents of the same speeder.
Which is the point - one persons speeding 5 times through the area or 5 different speeders doesn’t matter to the pedestrians or the kids. Its still the same danger, and it’s still the same increase were seeing.
I’m still not sure what your point is - the traffic cameras reduce the behaviour, regardless of why or the who. Now that they’re gone, the behaviour we care about is getting worse again.
In BC those are rookie numbers
But its a tax on drivers! Its not fair! They don’t even work its just a tax grab. /s
That high of a percentage of drivers exceeding the limit doesn’t demonstrate the need for speed cameras, but rather a gross failure of road design and traffic engineering.
Enforcement should come after traffic calming and pedestrianization efforts have failed. North American cities are notoriously bad at that.
Ford forced municipalities onto speed cameras in place of the road design changes that they were doing.
All I see is a study that shows places where the posted limit should be increased. If there are concerns about pedestrians then safer crossings, pedestrian education, or road redesigns should be the focus.
I don’t understand the constant push toward reducing the speed of road traffic and I say this as somebody who has been a pedestrian and a driver for several decades.
I mostly agree, where it’s reasonable. In places with a large presence of pedestrians, I don’t exactly, except for on road design. The roads should come up and meet pedestrian level, not pedestrians going to street level, for example. This requires that cars go slower. It isn’t an issue of pedestrian education though. Pedestrians shouldn’t need education. The design should just work to protect them.
But yeah, usually cars “speeding” consistently is a sign speed limits need increased. Lower speed limits increase the difference in speeds of cars, some going the limit and some going the speed they’re comfortable with (the speed fo traffic). This delta causes accidents, and the larger the delta the worse the accident. If people are always speeding, the limit needs to match them.
I think it really depends. Often times the roads existed before the people. If they wanted to live near a 50-80km roadway, that’s their choice.
I’m so tired of watching speed limits creep down and people continually crying about speeding when the issue is attentiveness and awareness.
IMO people not signaling intent and running trains through yellow/red lights to make left turns are FAR more dangerous than people going 15-20 km over the limit down straight highways with little traffic. Oh, and people who camp in the passing labe and force people to undertake to get around them.
As for pedestrians, it’s people standing on the curb and crossing streets with their heads down on their phones and headphones on. What happened to the rule of crossing as quickly and safely as possible, and paying attention all around your as your cross?
We should also be putting fault in vehicle manufacturers who continue to produce complex touchscreen-based infotainment systems.
Um, but even with that, the stark difference in the data also shows that the cameras were an effective means of traffic calming.
Traffic calming and pedestrianization efforts have failed.
You’re getting downvoted, but it’s true. Ford has also passed laws making changes to existing roads more difficult.
Yup. I think it’s the difference between looking at how things actually are and what they could be. We all know that better road design and pedestrian streets are the gold standard solution. Implementing any of those doesn’t happen in vaccuum. We need the political organization needed to enable them. We don’t have it. We don’t even have the plausibility of having it. The small bits we’ve managed to do on municipal basis are getting reversed. So in reality those initiatives have failed to decrease vehicle speeds. The fact that it’s because we can’t actually implement enough of them, for people of Ontario, … I consider immaterial in the current context. If we were in an emvironment where it was actually plausible we could implement calming and pedestrianization changes and we were debating those as opposed to speed cams, then that would matter greatly. In the Ontario reality we live in, with Ford leading us for 8 years and counting, with the NDP at 20%, I think it’s useful to consider those efforts as failed and fight for whatever measures are plausible and achieve the speed decrease we want in order to save pedestrians lives and injuries. And the graph here shows traffic cams did indeed work, all else being equal.
Speed cameras ARE traffic engineering, and here is the evidence that they work. They are not the only tool available, but to act like they weren’t doing anything about traffic engineering is a bizarre take.
Plus, most municipalities were funding safer road designs with the revenue from the cameras. They were a great stepping stone to improving road safety and design.
Question?
What’s the difference between speed camera data vs “raw speed data”?
Like fuck, my old car would be going 35mph, but the speedometer would read 43mph, but indeed it was only going 35mph…
Ultimately, I calculated my speedometer to be ~22.5% off calibration, but I just got used to it, ignored it altogether, and just kept pace with traffic. Never got a speeding ticket, cuz I’m not stupid…
The page does not explicitly state what device or method is now being used to collect that data. However, now the cameras may be used only for measurement rather than enforcement.
Other methods could include: pneumatic road tubes, inductive loop detectors embedded in pavement, radar speed sensors, LiDAR sensors
If they’re going to show this “Data_Collection” then they need to actually specify how it was collected.
Why? Does it make a difference?
Yes, I think it does. I’d like to know exactly where they measured the data and how. If they measured right at a section that goes from 50 to 25 then I’d like to know.
I agree. And I’m disappointed this random chart didn’t come with actual evidence.
I calculated my speedometer to be ~22.5% off
That car is not road legal.
When I was driving 1970s cars in the 1980s, highway speed limits were essentially the same as they are now, in 2026, where cars are much more capable.
The problem is the speed limits are wrong.
Human brains have not improved. They are not more capable.
A pedestrian being hit by a monstertruck will benefit from it being at a lower speed, regardless of whether or not the monstertruck has ABS.
I can’t recall seeing pedestrians on the highway.
My guess is the high-speed monster trucks clear the way.
I’m not Canadian but do highways usually have names like
Bayshore Dr, Smyth Rd, Meadowlands Dr
And do highways usually have max speed limits of 40kph (Bayshore Dr)?
And another fun fact about Bayshore Dr: it goes right by St Rose of Lima Catholic school where there could be pedestrians.
Yes. In Canada we have an epidemic of highways that run through residential areas. What should be a quiet, one-way street, just barely wide enough to get a car through (with cars parked on the street), ends up as a 2-way street with the same dimensions as a country road having a 90km/h speed limit.
People do not drive fast through narrow spaces. The streets are too damn wide!
I should also point out that our cities are having budget crises due to all the road maintenance these asphalt monstrosities require.
The speed cameras weren’t on the highway
Cars are a lot heavier now and speed limits should be reduced because of this.
Some are, not all. Even those big pickups are probably about the same as early 70s personal luxury cars.
guy do some basic research and come back to the discussion
You will be surprised how much heavier the modern cars are, even compared to steel body cars from the 60s.
Pickups from the 1970s were 3000lbs, now they are double that.
Ev/hybrid the batteries are heavy.
SUVs are heavier than station wagons but we should compare them to sedans due to popularity.
Cadillac
https://www.conceptcarz.com/s12130/cadillac-deville-series.aspx
F150
https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/f-150-raptor/specs/2023/ford_f-150-raptor_ford-f-150-raptor_2023
The present day truck is ~1000 lbs heavier.
Great, so now we know the areas where the posted speeds should be increased 🤷♂️
I thought speed cameras were originally only in school zones.
This is more a chart demonstrating bad road design or regulation, and the incompetence of the enforcement. Either the roads are designed in such a way that huge numbers of people feel safe driving at these speeds (because the speed limit is too low, or the road designed unsafely) or there is a large number of unsafe drivers who only stopped in the presence of cameras, and who went right back to unsafe driving without issue.
This is a chart demonstrating that speed cameras are sometimes an effective intervention for an otherwise badly designed road.
Reports from my city indicate collisions go up with speed cameras.
We already know speed has little to do with safety.
These are a shit implementation of a bad idea.
It’s quite difficult to retroactively adjust the traffic speed, without causing knock on issues.
A road might have been designed to cope with 50, but hidden junctions, or pedestrians might knock it down to a 30. Making it feel like a 30 is quite different.
I’d personally prefer other, more polite methods. In the UK, the signs showing your current speed in either green (good) or red (too fast) are remarkably effective. I accept that speed cameras are needed when the other methods fail.
Proviso, the cameras should be blatantly obvious, with no ambiguity over the limit. It should only catch people both deliberately speeding, and not paying enough attention to spot the risks of speeding.
or there is a large number of unsafe drivers who only stopped in the presence of cameras, and who went right back to unsafe driving without issue
…thus proving the effectiveness of cameras…
Only if you have cameras on literally every road. No substantial action is being taken, so they go right back to dangerous driving as soon as they aren’t on-camera, as this graph seems to indicate.
You don’t have stop lights at literally every intersection. You’re being foolish.
The point of speed cameras isn’t to stop you from speeding, it’s to stop innocent people from getting fucking slaughtered. We can put up with you speeding where the risks are relatively low.
Jesus fucking christ, it’s like you people are going out of your way to find the stupidest takes. I think on some level, that’s exactly what you’re actually doing, because you simply don’t want to draw the obvious and correct conclusions.
The point of speed cameras isn’t to stop you from speeding, it’s to stop innocent people from getting fucking slaughtered.
If speeding isn’t a meaningful measure for safety, why are we enforcing the current limits? If it is, why are we allowing drivers to consistantly drive over those speeds?
Only if you have cameras on literally every road
Deal
This. I’ve driven in many roads where the speed limit was so unreasonably low that you’d get honked at consistently for respecting it
You’re not gonna get me to agree on this one. I have gotten two speeding tickets for going 2km over. Thats nothing but another way to fleece and steal from the working class. We all know where the speeders and racers hang out and the cops don’t do shit
It’s so selfishly myopic to look at the differences in fatality between 40 and 50, to look at the effects on driving speeds that these camera have, and then conclude, “This is a pointless money grab!” Like, dude, you’re clearly lying to yourself out loud. The lies we tell ourselves are not convincing to others.
I feel like there’s a middle ground between your two posts, like the speed limit should be lowered by 5 and that should be added as a margin of error. That way you don’t get angry people behind you for going under the speed limit when you’re just trying to not get a ticket.
I’m not sure it’s super constructive to be so antagonistic, especially when the other person has a valid concern.
I think motorists are given way too much freedom in car-dominated cities across the globe, but at the same time, yeah, any sane person should agree that such a small deviation from the posted speed limits don’t deserve to be punished the same as a 10km/h to 20km/h higher deviation; it’s just not logical.
I’ll admit, I’ve sped so much in my past, doing 160km/h on highways with posted limits of 80km/h, and there would still be people riding my bumper on occasion at such speeds. They should have punished people like me, who liked fucking around and never found out because punishments for speeding are very unequal across the board.
Many times im just going with traffic and then I realize we’re all doing 10 over, i slow down and get honked at. People are always in such a rush
Devils advocate: if they are catching such slim margins they equally should be catching people going 5, 10 or 15 over of not more and actually being dangerous.
Yes it sucks to get fined for being in the margin of error, but if it was anywhere a residential or school zone I’d say it’s worth it given how easy it is for a child to wander into the street and how little it takes for a car to seriously harm or kill said child.
The best solution is just better public transit so people don’t feel the need to drive but getting more drivers to drive safer is a good first step
Luckily all the school areas have flashing signs that show you your speed .
And your second point about public transit, Thats a pipe dream. Come live in Toronto, it’s never going to happen. It would be lovely if transit was well funded, if it didn’t cost me $4 to travel 8km in 90 minutes. But Thats never going to happen. Not unless we nuke the rich. We have been hearing about new transit plans that get immediately canceled by the next administration for decades. All we do is get jerked around
Speed cameras definitely work, they’re getting better at catching folks as the technology matures.
Of course, they’re also a form of state surveillance, generally deployed as a money printer, and generally distract drivers (you see those lines on the road, your vision tunnels, you check speed, and you lose peripheral for about 1–2 seconds).
I mean, I think pneumatic road tubes are far more effective for capturing cleaner data on vehicle speeds over time, since they are less visible and likely unnoticed by many drivers. They aren’t there to fine drivers, but I’m sure with a small hidden camera, they could work in the same way. Not sure why speed cameras are so visible, since people almost always in my experience, will speed back up after leaving the area of the speed camera, negating the benefits swiftly.
That’s exactly why they are visible. People don’t slow down because they abstractly understand that speed cameras exist in the universe. They slow down where they know there is a camera, and that is exactly the behaviour that is being exploited. Cameras are intended as a location-specific safety intervention that (according to all practical data) makes drivers slaughter vulnerable road users significantly less than when there isn’t a camera. You can argue that it’s a bandaid but I think that would mean you were trying to solve a problem other than the one the camera was deployed for.
If you get distracted from a speed camera you should not be allowed to drive. You are the problem.
If you are incapable of understanding the compulsion to check compliance, there is no hope for you. Consider not driving for everyone’s safety.
If it takes 1-2 seconds to check your speedometer you shouldn’t be driving.
The seatbelt and phone cameras here in Australia are rather interesting to view the captures from. Working for a government body people would come in to our self service area and want to view the photos (which can be done at home, on your phone or pc); they’d get in a bit of a huff and puff once they saw the images.
The angles these cameras are placed get most angles drivers try to hide their phone usage, and the resolution is decent considering the cameras distance away.
Cameras catching distracted drivers are a great win in my eyes, no one should be fumbling their phone while trying to drive.
Looks like intended use - great idea!
Folks should know phones are banned in cars for a good reason.
By that logic, posted speed limits are a hazard to pedestrians because they distract drivers who then check their goddamn speed. I mean you must be joking.
Apples to oranges - a speed camera necessitates and immediate check and possible adjustment; a speed limit is a delayable check where safety can be evaluated first.
You are stretching so fucking hard to split that hair. Yes, I can see that they are slightly different. They are apples to oranges, but you would like to pretend its apples to riding lawnmowers. It’s ridiculous, you can see that, right? And it’s just a distraction from reality and evidence.
The OP chart is one item from a huge consistent body of evidence that shows that drivers are perfectly capable of adapting to the presence of speed cameras. Speed cameras are not a hazard to pedestrian safety and if that isn’t a bad faith argument, buddy, you’re actually literally deluding yourself. In fact they are a huge benefit to pedestrian safety. That is why this legislation is not likely to stand.
For anyone looking for more details on this, I highly recommend this video from Oh the Urbanity
It discusses this exact phenomenon in the data: speeding before and after the banning of automated enforcement cameras. It also argues effectively that the policy is inconsistent with Doug Ford’s platform of being “touch on crime”
It also argues effectively that the policy is inconsistent with Doug Ford’s platform of being “touch on crime”
When have actual implemented conservative policies ever been consistent with conservative “tough on crime” platforms?
They said “touch on crime” which I assumed related to the Epstein files but now that you mention it, a typo is probably more likely
Enforcers should be very transparent as to where money from fines goes.
Enforcement was for the traffic cameras? Literally every municipality I looked at had a page on their website discussing it. Every one had the fines go first to operation/maintenance of the fine system, then to a road reconstruction fund to further reduce speeding.
Good to know.
Throw it in the river for all I care. The point is to punish people who are breaking the law.
If fines are too annoying to administer, suspend the license and issue lifetime driving bans for repeat offenders. No more whining.
Well the government’s job to care for everyone and the point is safety. Punishment is meant to fit the offence/crime. Suspensions and bans are always on the table.
I wish they’d put the same enforcement on people not using blinkers and running red lights to make left turns as they did prople going 15k over limits down straight roads with little traffic around…
Running reds seems like a great job for cameras.
Blinkers are difficult because its so fast and is best seen from within traffic. Even if you had a person sitting there doing a sting it would be difficult to catch.
Many municipal transit systems all full of cameras pointed at the passengers. I think those would be better utilized pointing out at traffic.
Yes, red light cameras are a good use for cameras.
Blinkers are difficult, but that doesn’t mean they should be ignored. Just put a cop at an intersection, it wouldn’t be hard at all to catch people not using them. Hell, a cop could have their entire month quota of tickets done I a day of they just sat at an intersection.
This is why I like average speed over distance cameras. They are not focused on catching people in particular spots. They get everyone in an area to drive at a similar speed.
So they try to track cars and where they go? That sounds like a very bad power that nobody should have.
Also full of false-positives
The cameras are not optical, so false positives are very very rare.
They can’t track where you go, they only measure your speed between two detection points. The foto only gets taken if you exceed the speed limit.
So in that way they are better than normal cameras
so the first detection point records your license plate and time. This is required for determining your speed once you pass the second point. But yet all of those obeying the speed limit get recorded of taking a specific road at a specific time.
There are many optical speed cameras that take pictures of all cars passing it to share it with police intelligence networks.
That is also open to abuse, just like any other database.
When there is a campaign of vandalism targeted against ring, dash other similar cameras, I will consider believing that could be a good faith argument.
Its not the cameras that are the problem. Its when they get connected to central databases that they become a problem. Then they get used for public surveillance rather than security.
If it’s two distinct sensors, how does it know it’s the same car?
To clarify, the second measuring point has an normal camera along with the licence plate camera. It knows its the same car because its aimed at the Same point the licence plate camera is.
