Hello people, my family recently bought a Renault 5 e-tech. The car itself is great, but there are some aspects that creep me out, especially the driver-facing camera. We didn’t actually know that such a camera existed before we bought the car, it was only mentioned as the car was given to us.
The cameras official purpose is to see, if you are tired and paying attention to the road, by some “AI magic”, I suppose. You can also let it scan your face, so that you automatically get logged into your profile.
I personally think, that that is kinda creepy, especially as there is no visual indication if the camera is currently recording and no official way to disable the camera hardware-wise. When it is being coverd, the car immediately complains about it.
When talking to friends or family about it, I got one of two reactions: equal concern, or “nice feature actually”, “what about the camera on your laptop?”, “you are way too paranoid”, “I have noting to hide; it is only me driving being recorded”.
I have also seen such cameras in other cars, BYD for example.
What do you think, is this creepy or am I too paranoid? Does anyone know where the actual data is processed, on device or on some cloud server? Do you have any experience with such cameras? I couldn’t really find any information about it on the internet.
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We got a modern BYD recently as a rental on a holiday that had this, it was really annoying. Anytime anything happened the car beeped, it was near constant different beeps - super distracting. Most of the things could be turned off, but had to be turned off each time the car was started, on a tablet buried in various menus.
The attention thing also wasn’t working great with the driver wearing sunglasses, it’d randomly start complaining. It also complained when the driver would lean forward to get a better view around a corner or anything.
It was a very fancy car, but I’d definitely never choose a car with these features, even though some may probably be useful.
I’d also never trust one of these companies not to change the policy on what they can do with this camera in the future, at which point you’ll have little to no choice about it. Or, to find out they messed up and now anyone can watch you in your car.
I’d go back to the dealership and complain, either ask for a refund or a way to be able to cover the camera, especially if they only disclosed it as you got the car.
One thing the Renault does great is the ability to turn all those systems off with a dedicated button to the left of the steering wheel.
Unfortunately all these systems are mandatory for car manufacturers these days. Renault handels it about as well as a car maker can to be honest.
That’s interesting. OP implied they can’t be disabled but now I see it was specifically hardware vise.
Does the car still complain if the camera is covered when these are disabled?
I was very interested in this car and tested it for about a week, the first thing I did was put a piece of black tape over the sensor. It does not complain, it doesn’t notice.
If the systems are enabled, it warns you that it doesn’t work, which is every time you start the car until you press the button.
I have no idea what kind of data this car gathers but out of all the cars I’ve shopped for lately this one was definitely the least intrusive of them all. The fact that this car in particular shows up here is kinda wild to me.
I didn’t end up getting it because the trim levels are weird.
Thank you, that’s very useful to know.
It’s creepy even if it has a legitimate purpose. There’s a move to make this kind of tech mandatory in all cars, with the purported aim of stopping drunk driving. https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/federal-surveillance-tech-becomes-mandatory-161321992.html
Surveillance is always under the guise of “protect the children” from the same government who rapes and kills children with 0 repercussions.
Put a sticker over it
The car complains, when I do that. Maybe there is some way around that, but I haven’t found one
Return the car. Complain to the dealership that the car complains when you cover the camera.
In my fantasy world, every single person who buys one does exactly that.
Then the car co either goes tits up, or it stops loading the vehicle full of spyware.
Same for smart TVs.
Maybe you could rig up something to have a small picture of yourself a few inches away from it
It depends. IIRC some laptops that come with face unlock feature use dual IR cameras to confirm the face is not a flat picture with a bonus of being indifferent to darkness. They need a staring minifig!
Haha, great idea
I will never buy a car made after 2018.
I got a 2020 mustang and it even more basic in terms of tech than my previous car, a 1999 bmw.
Curious why that year? You have to go much older to predate any surveillance tech. Like some cars in the 90s had GPSs embedded, not sure when the ability to offload data arose but no later than 2007 in OnStar equiped vehicles.
That year and earlier had way less tracking and also have cars I actually want.
For example, my 2015 car has no connectivity because the cell modem is too old. And it’s a station wagon, which nobody makes anymore.
My 2019 Kia is pretty stripped from “smart” features 🤷♂️
It is very creepy. Especially if there is no official way to disable the camera, so that it does not complain about the camera being disabled.
You’re not being paranoid - that would be a hard “no” for me. I’d keep a clunker from the 70’s alive and drive that forever.
They will stop making parts… it is already happening. I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
Driver awareness systems A.K.A. driver-facing cameras have been a thing for quite some time now, and they do in fact serve a legitimate safety purpose which is detecting if you’re falling a sleep or distracted from looking at the road. If you’re in the EU these systems are mandatory which is also why the car complains when the cameras are covered.
Unfortunately these systems can also be exploited for nefarious tracking purposes without any real way to know for sure.
Thank you for the context! Interestingly, I can disable the system in settings, so Renault should be able to let me cover it or provide a cover
Legislation can sometimes be a bit weird, so they might not actually be allowed to let you cover the camera despite allowing you to disable the system in settings. Most likely this system is restored to default enabled state every time the car “starts” because this is often a requirement for safety systems that can be disabled.
If you’re in the EU these systems are mandatory which is also why the car complains when the cameras are covered.
Mind-boggling if true. There’s no way I would own such a car.
I mean, there is a fairly good argument to be made for safety features that actually increase road safety. The tech and legislation requiring it is not bad, it’s the unnecessary data-hoovering that can go on top of it that’s bad. This is where we sort of rely on GDPR to provide at least some guard rails, although it isn’t currently enough.
I’m sure it does save lives. That does not justify invading everyone’s privacy with a video wiretap in every car. As you and another commeneter pointed out, it would be fine if it was self contained and we could trust the car wasn’t radioing to various corporations and governments. But we know for a fact that they are. As long as the car is able to transmit that data out of my control, I don’t trust GDPR to protect me from being spied on with this camera.
- Camera
- Internet connectivity
- Proprietary software
No device should have more than two of these things.
I don’t see why a vehicle needs to connect to the internet at all. Or have a screen whatsoever. I don’t understand why a car can’t just be a thing with a gear shift and a fucking steering wheel that drives from point A to point B
We’re being sold this idea of a car being like, a mobile family home or comfort space away from home. But the thing is, cars before 2015-ish were actually kinda comfy. Now they look and feel like robots. Kinda sickening. They all look so fucking ugly too every car is the same ugly round van/SUV shape now.
wherever there’s money to be made, capitalism will inevitably enshitify it and there’s A LOT of money to be had by cars with cameras and sensors that record your habits to report them to insurance industry to charge the maximum possible fees and to the police to keep track of your whereabouts.
making cars comfy and convenient (as well has making it the only viable means for travel) is the way people get lured into this mobile panopticon by choice and they pay for the privilege to do so.
Can’t steal a Tesla. Once stolen, it cannot be used.
I mean, that’s great and all but I’ve never really had a problem with my cars being stolen more so with them becoming more expensive and less efficient not to mention ugly as sin, Tesla is a perfect example. Those cars look like corporate sanitation personified.
I don’t see why a vehicle needs to connect to the internet at all.
Remote start (ICE) or remote starting heater (EV, ICE with Webasto) is a nice feature. Ability to check the status of your doors (are they locked), windows (maybe you left them open because it was hot and then the rain sensor didn’t close them), etc. All great features. Ability to track it is great if you have kids and let them drive, I guess - mine isn’t that old yet.
It would be much nicer if you could route all of that to your HA server instead of the manufacturer’s server though.
But the thing is, cars before 2015-ish were actually kinda comfy.
Is why I keep driving utterly depreciated formerly executive/luxury shitboxes! Okay, I had one 2019 Mercedes, best car I’ve ever owned, other than the privacy issues. But you can get 90% of the actual physical car features that car offered in a car manufactured before they started connecting 'em to the internet. Would only be missing the 9G-Tronic transmission and the super efficient engine that made it feel like I was driving for free.
Now my dream car is a 2010-2012 Range Rover (L322). First of the ones with the good 4.4 diesel engine and the extremely good ZF 8 speed transmission. Last of the ones with the sexy boxy body shape. Connectivity? GPS, radio, bluetooth (only for calls). No internet. Price? About 10-15k EUR for a decent one. Good luck finding a brand new car for less than 100k with the same comfort level and towing capacity. Maintenance costs? OK if you know how to wrench, literal bankruptcy material if you don’t.
Remote start (ICE) or remote starting heater (EV, ICE with Webasto) is a nice feature. Ability to check the status of your doors (are they locked), windows (maybe you left them open because it was hot and then the rain sensor didn’t close them), etc.
I can do all of this myself with my eyes and my hands, I live in a place where I don’t lock my car really ever unless I go to the big cities. Like I detest the idea of having an app for my car to tell me the automatic window thing you’re talking about didn’t do it. I am perfectly capable of doing that myself with my own 2 hands, I’ve forgotten before in the rain and it hasn’t ever been so big of a deal that I’d opt for a feature to do that for me, it’s the definition of unnecessary. Remote start seems nice especially in the brutal winters but I’ve never had it before and I’ve never had any problems waking up before sunrise in below 0 weather to start my car other than battery issues. I also don’t see why remote start and heated seats would require internet or an app whatsoever.
It would be much nicer if you could route all of that to your HA server instead of the manufacturer’s server though.
I literally have no idea what this means and zero interest in learning anything more about software or hardware, I do admit that’s probably kindof ignorant of me but I also do not like “computer stuff” like that, I have an iPhone because I want it to 100% simple as possible like I’m a boomer.
I just want a god damn car I can start with my hands and drive where I need to go safely and efficiently. That’s it. I don’t understand why people enjoy having so many more unnecessary bells and whistles.
Good for you then. Where I live, it can be 35 degrees and sunshine and then suddenly torrential rain half an hour later. You’d want to be able to make sure the window is closed when it starts raining. How do you do that if you can’t get to the car at the moment?
0 degree weather doesn’t really warrant pre-heating your car either. Try running out the moment you wake up in nothing but a t-shirt and maybe pants when it’s -30 or colder to get the car. Bonus points if you live on the 5th floor and have to run down, then up to go have breakfast and then back down. Then tell me you see no value in being able to do this remotely.
Though if you use an iPhone, I don’t really see why you care about having a non-connected car anyway. Your phone already reports where you are at all times.
Try running out the moment you wake up in nothing but a t-shirt and maybe pants when it’s -30 or colder to get the car.
lol. I own winter coats for a reason… You throw that on instead of a t shirt in -30 mornings. We get those here too. Just going out in a t shirt is your own fault. I would also never work somewhere I couldn’t run outside quick to roll up my windows. I always work labor so I’ve never ever been told I’d have to just sit inside if I knew my car was being rained on. These problems aren’t real problems being solved they’re laziness. Telling me you don’t take the time to put a coat on in the winter is fucking insane no wonder you need your car to connect to WiFi and track you!
I don’t care about my phone tracking me tbh.
I care about it being easy and efficient to use, that’s my whole point about cars.
I’m not going to bother getting dressed just to go start the car lol. I own a winter coat too, I rarely use it because I don’t need it when it’s warmer than about -30. I go out in my shorts and t-shirt and then get dressed when it’s actually time to leave.
Anyway, all of these things make using your car easier and more efficient. Not having to spend extra time doing things manually. But like I said, if you don’t care about your phone tracking you, why give a shit about the car? It has far less data, it can’t even access your bank accounts or email.
I bet you don’t drive a car with manually adjustable valves either. Why? Are you lazy? Or is it that technology takes care of things you don’t want to spend time doing? Matter of fact, why not walk or cycle to work? It’s all laziness in the end.
There’s a certain level of laziness that I am willing to sacrifice for comfort/efficency, and then there’s the level of work that I enjoy putting in to my daily routine. Now I’m just worried for you as a fellow winter enjoyer… put on a coat and some gloves dude! You can get frostbite! It is 100% worth it, you already have to put on atleast underwear (you owe that to your neighbors if they can see you like mine could) and shoes! Please don’t tell me you skip putting on shoes too…
As far as the data thing goes I would be willfully ignorant if the cars actually reflected what I wanted to do with them, if that makes sense. I don’t need it to connect to an app on my phone because that personally annoys me, that’s kinda it. Same with driver facing cameras, fancy screens that are distracting, etc, it’s mostly that they personally annoy me and I don’t personally like the features and I wish there were options to have a simple car with a simple, physical interface.
No device should have the third, ever.
I have an offline dashcam and it’s fine. It does everything I need it to, and does nothing I don’t want it to. It can’t connect to the internet so it can’t spy on me if it wanted to.
Maybe there’s room for compromise, but there is absolutely zero reason to concede such things in advance. The baseline expectation is that every device should be running Free Software and fully respect its owner’s property rights, full stop.
If you instead approach the issue with the casual attitude that “oh, proprietary isn’t so bad if it doesn’t connect to the internet” the compromise after negotiations ends up favoring proprietary tyrants way more than you would’ve been okay with.
Love it, I’ll be stealing this comment thanks.
I’d love to buy an electric car, but I want one with no electronics, if that makes sense. Electric power train, but no screens, “driver aids” or other nonsense
buy an old car and convert it. It aint gonna be cheap but probably cheaper than a new EV.
Look up the cost of conversion, then double that. It is very expensive to convert and then you get a car no one will touch for repairs. EV conversion companies are quite scammy.
Converting an ICE car to an electric is insanely expensive. Far more expensive than buying a new electric car, even without factoring in the cost of buying the old car
where did you read that?
YES! If you don’t need much range, maybe look the Renault Zoe from 2012. As its older it doesn’t seem to have that much tech in it.
Be very much aware that these old Renault Zoe use chademo for fast charging, a connector that literally isn’t used anywhere anymore so you’re relegated to AC charging. Oh, and a funny little quirk with them; they cannot charge with less that 6KW AC because of how they use the motor inverter. sometimes with public AC chargers this is an issue due to load distribution between multiple chargers.
Oh, I just thought, that it just doesn’t do “fast charging”. Thank you for the heads-up!
No radio ability to connect to cell towers or WiFi would be nice. I think there’s a brand doing this, but I forgot to read that article I saw about it just a day or two ago.
Edit: here it is: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2026/06/slate-says-its-electric-pickup-will-never-track-you/
That’s an Amazon owned company, their EVs won’t track you because they are already getting that data from your phones.
Renault has some models with almost no gimmicks, only a typical navigation system, for example the Kangoo at least our older model, no idea if that changed)
You can probably do an hybrid conversion of a popular ICE vehicle.
The newest kits replace the transmission and adds a battery in the trunk. The engine is then converted to run at a fixed RPM for max efficiency. You can also plug them in to charge at home and on short trips they never even start the engine.
Aside form the lost Trunk space, there are very few downsides.
There really should be more investment in this area so it becomes available dor mor cars.
Any examples of such kits or estimates of the cost?
5k to 8k depending on vehicle. Nothing mass manufactured yet. A lot of those products in the developing world. Lots of full electric conversion kits as well, but range is usually short to keep cost and size low.
Thanks!
Yep, I’ll never buy electric, becuase we aren’t allowed to have an analog one.
ELECTRIC IS SO FUCKING SIMPLE. motor. Battery. Voltage regulator. Gearbox. Thats it. That is all it fucking needs. But we can’t have that.
I think things need to start happening at dealerships. All those new cars just sitting outside unprotected. Hmm. Sure hope nothing happens to them. Do what it takes until we get what we want.
Why are people convinced this is just in EVs? All new vehicles will have this, even brodozers.
Thats it. That is all it fucking needs. But we can’t have that.
I share your pain.
I want an elec car. That is, if I could ahve one without spyware. Which I cannot, because enshittification.
Combustion cars are problematic in so many ways. But an older one is the only way I can avoid surveilance on wheels.
Think about what the mfg can glean from your car GPS! Or what they can infer and sell. You can figure some real intimate things about ppl that way. Give me your car GPS info. I will tell you where your kids go to school. I will tell you your economic class. Whether you just got cancer, b/c all the sudden your car is going to an oncologist office a lot. Whether you went to an abortion clinic last month. Whether you’re having an affair with a co-worker. It’s almost endless.
I’ve read claims that some car co’s now make more money from your data than from selling you the entire ass car.
This should scare the shit out of everybody. But it does not seem to.
What is scary is how many lemmings don’t realize all that data is tracked on your phones. So driving some 30 year old shit box doesn’t prevent anything.
I like the electronics, I just want anything that connects to the internet to be disabled. I’m close to needing to buy a new car, I plan on specifying at the dealership if they will stop me from disconnecting the GPS and other connections.
Assuming you live in Europe, check out the citroen ec3. Base trim doesn’t even have infotainment and is affordable as hell. Still a great car to drive and very practical.
I have a 2023 chevy bolt and I just pulled the fuse for all that stuff. It doesn’t really disable anything important. If you still want navigation or location-based charging, you can remove the onstar module behind the screen without issue, and the video tutorial made it look pretty damned easy to DIY. That disables all the spyware/internet stuff but leaves everything else working. I’ll probably do it eventually, for location-based charging and nothing else, but its very low priority at the moment, cuz I hardly ever go anywhere that can use the full level 1 12amp pull (my friends and family aren’t confident their wiring can handle it, which is totally fair, I don’t use 12amp at home for the same reason, and I’m getting a new outlet installed that will make it a level 2 charger anyway)
It also has physical buttons for all the important stuff. That and being able to disable the spyware were my two main criteria, with cargo space as a close third (used to have a civic coupe, loved the size, but useless for moving stuff)
This will always be a game of cat and mouse, but I know that for example 3rd gen tacomas have a module that does all the talking (has the SIM card). You can pull a fuse and it kills it, but you lose your Bluetooth microphone also if you connect your phone and want to make calls - however it’s just a power passthrough so it’s really easy to splice a bypass cable that gives power back to the microphone in the cab.
There’s other stuff you can do, like disconnecting the antennas but supposedly if there’s a good enough cell signal the traces on the PCB will still transmit, I dunno.
Either way, there’s ways to get around a lot of the invasive stuff in modern vehicles but it gets harder every year.
Backup cameras are mandatory for a long time.
I’ve fitted one into my old pickup, but again not worth the amount of complication that they generally come with, eg a massive screen in the dash and the canbus nonsense to go with it. I’d rather not have the level of canbus integration of modern cars, where a locking module or whatever failing can stop the whole car working
You want the Slate then
Would love it if they were making a sedan or a subcompact. Not everyone needs or wants a truck.
Already out of production, but the original fiat 500e is very much one of these barebones electric vehicles. I love mine
The Bezos-mobile
That and it used older, less safe battery tech.
Bezos has done a lot of horrible things, but making a $20k electric truck is not one of them.
I avoid shopping on Amazon unless absolutely necessary, maybe 2-3 times in the last ten years. I think his financial existence is an abomination. But if his truck company is the only manufacturer offering a $20k base vehicle then people have good reason to hand him money. Hopefully undercutting every other manufacturer by $10k+ will result in there being more cheap cars, and alternatives within that price range
I’ll believe it’s not $40k when they actually sell them.
It’s now “under $30k” since the tax break was nixed by Trump.
Was it ever actually confirmed that Bezos was a prominent investor in that startup?
They are going to be required to have the spyware cameras in 2027 as well. It’s federal law in the U.S. unfortunately. Hopefully there will be some published guides on tampering with and disabling them though.
Icepick or, less permanently, spray paint I suppose
Are you saying to use those tools on the car or the people forcing these fascist laws? Either way I’m for it.
Yes! I just heard of this recently. I hope it catches on.
I actually want a 90s Civic hatchback with an EV swap
Check the privacy laws in your country. If in Europe, you can have the services disconnected. Looks like a Renault so sometimes cars manufactured in the EU will come built in with the ability to turn off the feature.
Car data privacy is the worst there is today and will get much worse with timd. Mozilla foundation put out a report recently
Thank you, I’ll look into that :)
All if this is why my next car with be from the pre-computer era
I’m still driving a 2001. Lol.
Late 90s to early 2000s was peak car. All downhill after that. Like everything really.
So your next car will be from 1940 or older?
Computers didn’t make their way into cars until the late 70’s, my next car will predate that.
Fatigue detection is a real thing that doesn’t use the type of AI that people think of when they hear that word today most often. It’s not language based but instead it’s able to recognize faces and posture, tell where your attention is focused, and recognize signs of fatigue like head drop, eyes closing, and attention drifting from the road.
It, along with other attention based driver safety features, are real and effective and can be done on device with a computer with less power than a modern cellphone.It is, however, at least a little creepy. It’s made a lot more so by it not being disclosed upfront with disclosures and full user awareness. It should be explained by both the website, the car manual, the salesperson and the car itself exactly what it’s doing and where any video data is being sent. It’s probably processing the video locally and at most sending telemetry about which driver just sat down and such, but 1) you might not want that 2) unless they actually tell you that you don’t know.
It’s not paranoia to want an explanation and appropriate assurances, or for it to be in your control. You don’t need to assume it’s the worst case for that to be true. It’s probably a real safety feature with a couple of quality of life features taped on so people can see it do something, since you don’t really see a passive safety feature. But without actual communication you don’t actually know that.
Thank you for the excellent response!
I see the safety benefits of having this, and I would appreciate knowing that the car would blast a loud sound every time my eyes shut off from sleepiness so it will never happen, but this must be 100% open source no exceptions so it can be verified that it doesn’t spy on you.
Yeah, I can see the safety benefits but I’m honestly not sure how I would feel about it. My current car has a variant but the camera is mounted on the outside, and it notices lane drift and changes in responsiveness to curves. It’s basically an extension of the collision/lane centering/automatic windshield wiper (weirdly) systems.
I’m okay with that because it’s not looking at me, but at the road, which I expect the car to do. Even if it was verified to not be sending anything anywhere I can honestly say I’m still very unsure about just being passively on camera like that.
don’t need to assume it’s the worst case
We are all assuming the worst case because it’s most likely based on historical data. There is no way to justify this while ignoring other actual safety issues like headlights. Pretty sure not being blind while driving is an actual issue, but since it doesn’t rape privacy and civil rights, they’ll just ignore that.
You’re literally quoting a part of a sentence to seemingly disagree with. Specifically a sentence that’s saying that you don’t need to believe it’s nefarious for it to be reasonable to want privacy and assurances of privacy.
They seemed on the fence about if they were being paranoid or if they were justified in feeling concerned and it was as bad as it seemed.
I’m saying it doesn’t matter what you believe their intentions are, it’s not paranoid to have concerns about the camera in your face. You can short circuit questions about the technology or their reputation and go directly to resolving that discomfort however is most suitable to you.
There are at least two cars owned by members of my family that I am aware of that have a fatigue detection, and neither of them use cameras. So I’m firmly in the creepy camp.
That’s pretty fair. I know the cameras can be more effective, particularly in situations where the driver may be using lane centering or something, but I’m not sure I could be fully comfortable regardless.
Loyal Moses has a vid on these cameras re Ford patenting tech that won’t let you start the car if your mood is deemed incompatible with driving.
Whatever the case re drive ability, 100% your insurance company will have this data.
Does the car stop complaining if you cover it or is it a constant ear assault? Can you start the car if it’s covered? Is there a workaround to disable it?
ETA: what’s weird is that your parents aren’t aware that most people cover laptop cameras. I’m parent aged, and I do. Many laptops come equipped with a slider device to cover it.
I only tried to cover it for a short time, as my parents are really opposed to the idea of covering it. Maybe I’ll design and 3d print a removable cover. I think the laptop camera argument was a little short-sighted; I also pointed that out to them 😅
I fold paper over the front, or put electrical tape. don’t need or want the thing.
Hell, that would motivate me to design a whole new plastic cover for the a pillar and remove the cameras entirely.
The laptop I have now has its own camera cover, but when I had a laptop that didn’t have it, I was able to buy little slider stickers to put over it. I don’t want to link any particular website, but if you look up “laptop camera slider sticker” you can easily find them.
Most people do not cover laptop cameras, but many do.
It was integrated into my last two cases. Maybe it’s a Lenovo thing.
System 76 came in a shitty, basic case. Feels almost fragile after Lenovo. And no slider. (I like the computer guts, but for that price the case shouldn’t feel like you could break something by simply lifting it while open.)
that was my experience w system76 as well; mac price tag w clevo build quality. only its support make it worthwhile.
For that price they can give it a durable case. It feels like driving around with car bumpers made of glass.
All this would be fine if, and only if you actually owned your car and all the data in it. If you could assume no cell phone somewhere hidden away in the computer. If the data was encrypted with a key you had, not the dealer, not the police, just you.
But we all know that isn’t the case. You might have a title to your car, and own almost nothing inside it. Everything is connected these days, which means someone is looking at that data and seeing dollar signs.
This is being touted for safety reasons, yet there are still no guidelines and headlight brightness, headlight height, hood height of pickup trucks, etc. Regulate the vehicle exterior for actual and immediate safety benefits before trying to float this privacy infringing shit.
There are in Europe. Which is also where this car is from.
Car regulations are so much fun. Atere you crazy? Your car can’t be that loud, there are several reasons for it, obviously. Oh wait, you mean a rich people car? Nevermind, those can be the loudest cars imaginable, because they need 900 hp
