I never understood why anyone would have their member voluntarily mutilated.
This is exactly what I mean by the anti-circumcision movement might have a point in theory, but in reality it’s a bunch of dudes who think they wouldn’t have tiny dicks if not for the surgeon.
I know it’s a “joke,” but I also down damn well that these men actually believe this bullshit deep down.
It will forever be impossible for anyone who isn’t deeply reddit-brained to take this cause seriously, at all. And it’s a trojan horse to conservatism anyway.
Please let this bullshit stay on reddit.
how does Lemmy still somehow manage to infight over something as basic as saying child mutation is bad lol
There are always vocal weirdoes in comments about anything, always.
Americans and their love for fondling with baby’s dicks, I fucking swear. You don’t even doing it because god loves foreskins, you do it because a rich fraud in the middle of the last century had repressed feelings about sex
I couldn’t care less about the topic, personally. Do it or don’t; you’ll certainly never hear me out here pushing for it. But none of these losers were victims of some great tragedy. This is MRA messaging bullshit and I’m constantly sick of ostensibly left people falling in line with it.
I’m not saying circumcision is right, I’m saying on the list of issues that actually matter in the world and are worth the effort of “solving,” circumcision is like #431253124324 on the list at best.
Not mutilating kids’ genitals is significant enough topic that requires talking about it. You putting it that low on your priority list actually says about you more than you care to admit, and the commenter doth protest too much to show how don’t care you are about it.
Not being as bad as some other shit doesn’t make this issue non-existent.
Good to see these young heros fighting the good fight
shit
Love the gang sign the kid is holding up
6 inches forward, 5 inches back. I lost an angry inch.
The train is coming and I’m tied to the track!
I see that there are very little cases where it is needed.
I think its also very telling that this post gets so much traction with dudes acting like its a mayor cultural abuse of men while scarcely connecting to other genital mutilation happening to women or even the fact that most medical edvances are still focust on mens health with some medication having serious sie effects for women like for example a pill to stop pregnancies that alot of men just expect to take even though it fucks up the hormonal balance.
I just wish the men on lemmy could see how we all could benifit from targeting the baseline problems partriachy brings us.
All this energy in the comments could be so usefull.
" gets so much traction with dudes acting like its a mayor cultural abuse of men while scarcely connecting to other genital mutilation happening to women"
FGM is already illegal in the states, otherwise i’m sure the constant comparison would matter more. also why are we making zero sum games for progressives when making a progressive safe environment would give more rights to everyone?
this is one of the frustrating points of contention that managed to get atheists and feminists fighting each-other rather than fighting groups like the heritage foundation well over a decade ago. i legitimately believe a lot of people pushing the need to suggest that somehow people are pretending FGM is being dismissed whenever addressing MGM are just bots/instigators trying to get people fighting. that is stupid. nobody is arguing this. why are we making this divisive bullshit salient and real?
“all genital mutilation is bad. it’s fucked up that it’s still legal in any capacity.” =/= “we hate women.”
even almost twenty years ago, saying “this is stupid, we should be supporting each-other progressively in rights and freedoms against thing like religious mutilation of baby genitals, and stopping religiously empowered political groups from dominating the discourse,” earned an inbox full of mutilated penis imagery, because somehow feminism is supposed to somehow be incompatible with a world where male babies don’t get their genitals mutilated to show that it’s just “not as bad” or something. ignore the kids who die from infection or w/e.
this was successfully made into the dominant social response in any context.
then we saw a couple decades of atheists and feminists being too distracted defending against incel/SJW branding to do anything about the fascist takeover, and progressives, dejected, vacated spaces allowing whole new incel chud armies to breed and take over. you’d think some would see this as a backfiring, but “it proves our point” so we won’t think about that.
i just wish i would stop seeing the same completely unnecessary divisive arguments that have helped groups like the heritage foundation get into power to remove rights for EVERYONE.
helping men =/= helping the patriarchy.
luckily, it looks like this thread is full of non-divisive conversation on the subject. this makes me happier.
heritage foundation types are destroying the world, we need solidarity and action focused at the problem, rather than anger at trans people wanting basic human rights, or at atheists/activists for wanting to remove classic religious patriarchal baby genital cutting traditions, because being against that makes you the patriarchy somehow. etc.
Calling unnecessary circumcision of boys “genital mutilation” sounds frivolous because it makes it sound like you’re placing it alongside FGM in terms of its effects and severity. But it is nevertheless genital mutilation, by just about any definition you care to put forward. The men living in the non-circumcision-crazed countries of the world aren’t constantly having their blackened rotten cocks drop off from all the dick disease they’re allegedly exposed to by having an intact penis, so I don’t understand why you would feel the need to do this to your kid without a specific medical reason (of which there are very few that require surgical removal of the skin).
“But if you don’t wash it, it gets dickcheese!” and the solution to that is slicing the fucking skin off of it? The clue is in the warning: wash it. Teach your sons to care for their wilberts. Telling them to lather up their bellend in the shower is hardly something that needs prompting anyway.
Personal/intimate hygiene should be part of regular schooling. Not even as part of sex ex, just “how to care for your vessel” kinda shit. Don’t drink to excess, walk and move at least 10 minutes a day, stay away from illegal drugs, be careful with prescription drugs, and wash your bastard stinksausage.
“But if you don’t wash it, it gets dickcheese!”
did you know that when you don’t wash your hands you get lot of dirt stuck behind your fingernails? i got an idea! maybe we should take a pair of pliers and take those off as well. does that sound reasonable? no? that’s exactly how this “argument” makes me feel. when you don’t wash it then it gets dirty so we’d better cut it off is some really dumb stuff…
It’s interesting that the pro circumcision crowd who rant about hygiene don’t support girls having their labia cut off to prevent grime from accumulating between the folds. Circumcision should be reserved for actual medical reasons, like phimosis, and if possible at age of consent.
The “hygiene” argument just shows me how backwards Americans are
Have the stupid cunts not heard of soap?
As a young child I didn’t know I had to wash between my toes, and I got athletes foot.
If only a kind doctor had cut all my toes off when I was born.
What is this “soap” you speak of?
You are meant to wash under the foreskin obviously but only with water. Soap is generally considered too harsh for that area
But obviously there are times one uses soap. It’s part inside, part outside. You have to keep outside out of inside.
More like everyone’s too socially awkward to want to discuss any form of hygiene directly. Kinda wild really.
and if possible at age of consent.
While I agree with the majority of the argument, I don’t agree with this point. Age of consent is mainly a political thing, disregarding the actualities involved with teenagers and sexual life.
Biologically, pubescence which is around 13 is where this decision should be undertaken, as this is the point where the individual is sexually mature.
The age of consent is not the age of sexual maturity for a reason. Girls as young as 6 can start their periods and can get pregnant, but they’re not mature enough to make informed decisions about their reproductive health, or really anything in general.
Yes that is correct, but you’re misinterpreting my initial argument. As by sexual maturity I mean the average age of sexual maturity which as implied within my statement was 13.
But, alas. It is a problem on my end with my argument not being clear enough on that - I can thank you on pointing that error out.
I still think you have a misunderstanding of what the age of consent is. It’s simply the age where a person is deemed mature enough to consent to having sex with an adult.
It’s not disregarding teen sexualities as it doesn’t punish two people under the age of consent for having sex, and it has nothing to do with reproductive health issues a child might experience. It is to punish adults for taking advantage of a child.
No one is saying that parents shouldn’t be able to approve medically necessary circumcision. They’re saying that parents shouldn’t be able to approve it for cosmetic reasons, and that the child should be the ones making that decision when they’re old enough to do.
The age of consent just happens to be when we deem children old enough to make their own decisions about sex, so it makes sense to restrict cosmetics circumcision until at least then.
I still think you have a misunderstanding of what the age of consent is. It’s simply the age where a person is deemed mature enough to consent to having sex with an adult.
I am aware of that fact. The point here is that people below the age of consent shall be able to decide what they want to do as opposed to waiting till the age of consent, as stated within my first argument.
In essence, teenagers should have a degree of say, because they are capable of understanding medical decisions and shouldn’t be restricted towards the age of consent - which usually is used for sexual consent with another person. In addition, age of consent already does one thing, which is sexual consent to others. It shouldnt dictate what you do to yourself.
The age of consent in most of the US is 16, which I think is a reasonable age to allow the decision.
If you don’t wash behind your ears, bacteria will grow and cause it to smell. By their logic, they should be chopping off ears as well.
The purpose of circumcision is to make maturation and sex less pleasurable as it removes about 1/3 of sensory nerves and meant to make it more difficult to masturbate because you can’t just pull on tight skin. You can still perform the basic acts of sex and masturbation, but it’s not as pleasurable. Likewise, one can still hear without ears even if it’s not as good as those with intact ears.
Just goes to show how insane these people are.
Jeez, if you make masturbation MORE pleasurable, teenage boys will never get anything done. It would single-handedly (pun not intended, but I’ll take it) crash the gaming industry.
stay away from illegal drugs
No, just be careful and make sure that you understand what you’re doing.
As an American who wasn’t circumcised, this country is so fucking weird about it. Like I got teased for it occasionally. People talk about hygiene, but from what I hear you’re unlikely to find a guy who cleans his asshole but not his foreskin. Like, do what you want with your body, get circumcised if you want, bifurcate the thing if you want, I don’t even have a dick anymore, but circumcising babies is taking that freedom away from them for reasons that always sound ludicrous to me.
And for the attractiveness thing, I’ve had exes who think foreskin is really hot, and personally I think dicks look super weird without it.
There was an uncircumcised kid at my daycare we made fun of. We didn’t know why his was different than ours and thought HE was the weird one. Turns out no, it was our dumbass parents and the asshole doctors who did that to us that were the problem.
shit
Kinda fucked up how people basically ignore the fact that we do genital mutilation in America.
Nobody is ever going to take you seriously if you keep equating this to genital mutilation, which in common usage clearly and always refers to female genital mutilation which is so vastly different and more barbaric so as to render any kind of comparison immediately moot.
If you have to speak in hyperbole and melodramatics to make your point, you don’t have a point.
Really fucked up that if you call it genital mutilation or the sexual assault of a child people will push back against it and defend the act.
Yeah but it’s to boys so who cares? /s
Its actually hurtful to watch the strong opposition to cirumcision involving girls yet barely any opposition involving boys. It looks like another take on sexism and like one commenter said, it makes it more difficult for trans people.
Circumcision for both genders should only be a medical decision, not a thing you or your parents decide just because.
I get where you’re coming from, and I absolutely don’t want to minimise anyone’s pain, but circumcision is not really equivalent to FGM in terms of consequences.
graphic detail
Often FGM includes removal of the clitoris and some of the vulva, leaving girls with a tiny aperture sealed with scar tissue requiring new fully torn flesh to achieve penetration, and girls and women who have been mutilated in this way are usually unable to feel any pleasure during sex, only pain. FGM much more like having the whole glans chopped off and half of the two sides of the wound sewn together than it is like male circumcision.
Feel very free to firmly oppose circumcision, but please don’t suggest that FGM is the same. It really really really isn’t. It’s very very different in what’s removed, very very different in how much ongoing pain it causes, very very different in the effect on sensation, and it’s not equivalent.
It’s like suggesting that it’s not fair that people treat cars running into people so much seriously than bikes running into people, except everyone, whether they ride a bicycle or a car, can see how incorrect that is, whereas a vast number of prior have no idea how brutal FGM is, which is how you end up with people claiming circumcision is just as bad. I mean, don’t get me wrong. It’s bad. But it’s in a whole different level and world of consequences for the girl than for the boy.
I agree but you’re missing the point. It’s (primarily) not about the harm it does, it’s about consent not having been given. Newborns cannot consent to such things. They cannot make such a decision. Parents do not have the right to make such a decision, nor does anyone except the person themself.
Millions of newborns are forced into various religions without their consent. Basing your argument off of consent only is kinda a wash argument unless your willing to fight all the other things parents do to their children without their consent.
I don’t think you read behind my graphic detail spoiler, or you just claimed the equivalent of kissing you without your consent was just as bad as raping you, because they key point is consent. Incorrect. It is you who have missed the point. Kissing people without consent is not in any sense ok, but also trying to make out that my great aunt is a rapist because I never wanted the kisses trivialises rape and is not ok.
For what I’m saying how bad the thing is doesn’t matter, I do agree that FGM does more harm but the lack of consent is the real problem (eliminating the consent problem eliminates the entire problem, eliminating the harm problem does not solve the consent problem). I am not saying that FGM and circumcision are equally bad I am just saying that the root of the problem is the same in both cases.
Yeah, men aren’t allowed to talk about it. If we do, we’re questioning doctors, so we look stupid, and we’re questioning women, who all (in my experience) say they aesthetically prefer it, so we look sexist. We’re never going to win with that opposition. That’s why it’s not even a topic of discussion. It’s been decided for us, and we didn’t get a vote.
That why they do it to us as babies, so we can’t fight it. If they waited, we’d NEVER do it.
If we do, we’re questioning doctors, so we look stupid
Circumcision being medical is almost entirely an excuse by religious people. Cases where it is needed are rare (although additionally there are cases where it is not needed but is one of the possible solutions) and most of these cases are later in life where the person can provide informed consent.
and we’re questioning women, who all (in my experience) say they aesthetically prefer it, so we look sexist
What the fuck? How is that sexist? Just because Amerikkkan women who are used to it prefer it because it’s what they see as normal (In saner countries where infant genital mutilation is rarer women tend to prefer uncut because it’s what’s normal there) doesn’t mean that it should be done. Your body your choice. That’s equivalent to saying that women refusing to try to try to sexually appeal to men as much as possible is misandry.
not a thing you or your parents decide just because.
If you want it done for yourself, I’d say that’s ok. Personal autonomy. But yeah, no one should be making the decision to have it done to you (barring medical necessity).
I agree with your underlying point and don’t wish to detract from it though.
I do agree with you; however, the ‘just because’ part should be emphasised here. For non medical body alternations such as this, there should be a period of time to actually decide if you truly want to undertake this, along with an basic assessment. I’m not advocating for bans, but regulation on how this should be approached in the first place.
Not having kids, but it was done to me and I’m fine with it.
I’ve been in a relationship for ages now, but before that all the womem I asked said that preferred cut over uncut. Literally. All. Of. Them. It was at least a dozen.
But hey, don’t let me disrupt this whole… Uhh… Thing you guys got going on this thread.
Literally no thoughtful or reasonable sexual partner is going to say they prefer the type of penis it’s impossible for you to have, so that data is wildly biased.
I’m a woman and I’ve been with both. I don’t really care either way (and I feel confident most women who have actually been with both don’t really care) but my best lasting lover by far was uncut. I will not circumcise any sons I have.
Also in America cut is so normal that people may prefer it because they’re used to it.
But also, it’s fucking wild to argue to cut a piece off your baby’s genitals because of what future partners may mildly prefer. I wasn’t circumcised because my mom was firmly against the practice and I’m grateful for that.
And to add my anecdotes, back when I had a dick the foreskin never got in the way of me getting laid, and one ex was super excited to learn I had it.
If you are fine with being circumcised, that seems like the best possible outcome and I’m glad you are happy with your body in that way. However, many people were circumcised and are not fine with it. After all, it is a choice made for them without their consent. Also, it shouldn’t matter what women prefer. It should be your body, your choice. If someone wants to get circumcised later in life, that is their choice.
You’re obviously American, as were the women
It’s ok, we in the civilised world already think you’re stupid, your attitude towards mutilating the dicks of little boys is just another reason why we do.
People prefer what’s familiar, in cultures where it’s not the norm they prefer uncut.
Men in many African countries also overwhelmingly prefer their women cut. Coincidence?
The mistake in all of this discussion is making those who are circumsized feel ashamed about it at all. No one should feel bad about being circumsized.
Now that that’s out of way, that’s a pretty weak counterargument. Your justification for why we should keep doing it is that society prefers it? That’s exactly the thing that’s finally being pushed back against. It’s inherently a barbaric practice that serves no medical purpose (for the large majority) and is purely aesthetic, and we’re doing it to newborn babies so they can look like their daddies and keep the social norm alive.
You don’t have anything to feel bad about and it’s great that it hasn’t been a hindrance for you, but as soon as one generation stops, your argument will be moot.
The only shaming I’ve seen in this thread so far is of the parents who made that decision, and rightly so. People like the guy you replied to are perpetuating the issue by being so nonchalant about it.
it’s wild to me how many let this one thing dominate their entire identity and rail against their parents for it.
Our parents are fallible. Its okay to point out the fucked up shit they did to us and say “this shit is fucked up”
yeah they should have beaten more kids so they wouldn’t have time to winge about this garbage
Yes, because that’s what they’re used to. That’s not nothing. But in Australia I’ve had the opposite experience. Every single one saying they prefer uncut. It’s just what you’re exposed to.
Its like 10 in² removed by circumcision. Not necessarily length or girth from your dick. But 10 in² of incredibly sensitive skin on your sex organ.
New imperial unit for area dropped.
The squinch
I can’t speak for everyone but I am an average sized uncut USian, and mine foreskin is pretty tight when erect to the point I think it might be painful if I was cut. I wonder if there’s anyone who got circumcised post puberty that can chime in.
Look up phimosis. It’s pretty common from my understanding but I had to get circumcised a few years back from it. Starts with a bit of tearing around the opening of the foreskin which will eventually turn into scar tissue. Then things start getting painful. You can make cranking your hog not painful, but sex and even just full erections were painful.
I do miss my little hooded member, sex doesnt feel the same way as it used to, and I don’t last as long in bed but hey… no more pain and split foreskins these days!
It’s actually decently common. Sorry you had to do it though.
I remember the scrubs episode. Sorry you gotta go through that.
Yes. Cut male here. For the first five or so years of my sexually active time, when I would get a particularly vigorous erection the skin below my glans would literally tear in random places around the circumference. It was quite painful but has thankfully stopped now and Im left with just some scars.
When my son was born I refused to let him out of my sight until every staff member was able to assure me he would not be circumcised.
Parents: do NOT circumcise your children, it’s barbaric.
I’m a grower and pretty big. When I got to puberty basically every erection was painful. It took a couple years for the skin to stretch so it didn’t hurt. If I ever have a child in this fucked up world I will kill someone before I let them mutilate my child the way I was.
I feel like I missed about 10 layers of context here… and I’m not sure I want them 😭
Americans still routinely mutilate baby boys, because they’re stupid
And fisting is just a beacon of healthy genital exploration?
Do you bring up fisting in every conversation or only when it’s about something below the belt?
It’s harmless
Most importantly, it’s done with consent
It gets terribly misrepresented in porn
I could not, would not, with a mohel
Would not, should not, with hot oil
Shit
(Did I follow the instructions in the title correctly?)
Nah you capitalized it
No one said post it after typing…
Stop all infant genital mutilation.
Not just circumcision but also de-intersex-ification.
When a baby is born with both types of genitals what usually happens is that the male ones are immediately removed and the person is raised as a woman. This is unethical. The infant cannot consent to being mutilated, it is an infant. Ban this barbaric practice.
Best we can do is punishing adults doing stuff consentually. Its the consent that makes it unethical.
