• bearboiblake [he/him]@pawb.social
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    2 months ago

    China: persues peaceful reunification with Taiwan

    The West: “LOOK!!! THEY’RE LIKE US! WORSE THAN US!!!” invades nation illegally

    Okay, buddy.

    • ManixT@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      China: Doesn’t even consider Taiwan’s right exist and is forcing their unification with aggressive military incursions in their territory.

      Tankie like you: ALL WEST BAD, ONLY CHINA GOOD AND EVERY VALID CRITICISM IS WESTERN PROPAGANDA.

      Okay, buddy.

      • bearboiblake [he/him]@pawb.social
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        2 months ago

        “ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME MUST BE A TANKIE!!!”

        I’m not a Tankie, and you can check through my entire comment history to easily confirm that. I just can’t help but notice that people have been saying “China is about to attack Taiwan any day now” for years and it never comes. Maybe they’re just not as bad as us?

        • zqps@sh.itjust.works
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          2 months ago

          People have been saying that about Russia for many years until it happened.

          Unlike Trump, most leaders aren’t rushing into things. They wait until conditions are favourable, and there are an incredible number of conditions to take into account for operations like this.

          • bearboiblake [he/him]@pawb.social
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            2 months ago

            Other people wrongly believed that Russia, despite having already invaded Ukraine in 2014, that Russia would not invade Ukraine again, for some reason. I am not those people. I am pointing out to you that they have had those favorable conditions already, a number of times, and no invasion ever came. If you want to believe that they just have just one more condition to take into account before invading Taiwan, you have the right to believe that.

            But the United States is far worse, and that was my entire point. I don’t want to defend China. Fuck China. But the US has done imperialism for centuries at this point

        • ManixT@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          The fact you think china is pursuing peaceful unification kind of outs you. They are not giving Taiwan a choice; comply or face death.

          Also I want all nations to behave better, especially Israel and the US right now. I don’t generally think China is bad and the people certainly are not, but bad actions should be called out and criticized regardless of who you are. That’s how we become better people.

          • bearboiblake [he/him]@pawb.social
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            2 months ago

            Israel: does a genocide

            China: flies a plane near a country they’ve been at war with for over 70 years

            Liberals: “hmm yes these seem about the same to me”

            • ManixT@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              Who said anything about being the same? Israel is the worst offender in the world.

              China is planning for an invasion of Taiwan, so they’re certainly putting together a backup plan in case Taiwan doesn’t agree to become part of China. Doesn’t seem like they’d need that sort of thing if they were being truly peaceful.

              It’s also things like your analysis being “flies a plane near a country” that is a sign you aren’t being adequately critical of china and I question your seriousness and reasons.

              I mean, seriously, look at this map and tell me how you consider this “peaceful”:

              • 0x0@lemmy.zip
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                2 months ago

                China is planning for an invasion of Taiwan,

                Yeah, they’ve been planning to invade next week for decades now…

                • ManixT@lemmy.world
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                  2 months ago

                  I mean, they literally are planning for an invasion. Whether they will is up for debate, but they’re definitely designing their naval fleet for it and performing exercises simulationing an invasion.

              • bearboiblake [he/him]@pawb.social
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                2 months ago

                China is planning for an invasion of Taiwan, so they’re certainly putting together a backup plan

                Yes, a backup plan for a potential case of Taiwan being used as a static US aircraft carrier against it in a war. You remember that they’re still at war, right? No peace treaty was ever signed between the KMT and the CPC.

                Look at your own source:

                Shortly after U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s arrival in Taipei, China announced plans to hold live-fire drills

                It’s almost as if the drills are a response to something other than just Taipei not yet being willing to re-unify.

                I also note that the bright red symbols on the mark connote a sense of urgency and yet this is from 2022. Obviously the invasion must be happening any day now…

                The map also references other drills from 1995-1996 which I note are denoted as “Third Taiwan Strait Crisis”… If they were at 3 crises by 1996, I can’t imagine how many crises we’ve had since, considering liberals have been unable to shut the fuck up about this for decades.

                Please, calm down, you are being reactionary.

                • ManixT@lemmy.world
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                  2 months ago

                  Right. Reactionary. That must be why china is requiring that all civilian ferries are capable of RORO of tank sized vehicles and why they’re building massive landing barges capable of handling landing on Taiwan’s rocky coasts.

                  Taiwan has every right to be concerned with an invasion because it’s what china keeps saying.

                  So, no, you don’t get to wave your propaganda wand and make a very real issue go away.

            • A_Chilean_Cyborg@feddit.cl
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              2 months ago

              Maybe ALL imperialism is war.

              Fucking first worlders, they don’t seem to understand that countries want to be left alone seemingly.

              • bearboiblake [he/him]@pawb.social
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                2 months ago

                Maybe ALL imperialism is war.

                That isn’t even true. Imperialism is often spread through soft power. I thought that was the entire point you were making, that China was exerting soft power in an imperialist manner… if China invades Taiwan, I will be right there with you, calling it out, but history has shown that the CPC is quite restrained, and I see no reason for them to change their approach.

      • zbyte64@awful.systems
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        2 months ago

        You don’t have to be a tankie to recognize that they are enforcing international law. In that context of a civil war their actions are uncharacteristically peaceful.

      • 0x0@lemmy.zip
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        2 months ago

        China: Doesn’t even consider Taiwan’s right exist

        Perhaps

        and is forcing their unification with aggressive military incursions in their territory.

        Really? Sources please.

        • A_Chilean_Cyborg@feddit.cl
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          2 months ago

          100% of the people in a country with everything you would expect a country to have and a strong Taiwanese national identity.

          • marxismtomorrow@lemmy.today
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            2 months ago

            There is no ‘Taiwanese national identity.’ The KMT eradicated what was left of the native Taiwanese population (to be fair that genocide was started by Japan, like nearly all genocides in East Asia). There are no native ‘taiwanese’ left, just primarily han chinese that invaded, eradicated the native population during a civil war, and declared themselves the last bastion of China.

      • bearboiblake [he/him]@pawb.social
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        2 months ago

        Yes, that’s right. The Chinese Civil War never ended, the KMT and the CPC never signed a peace treaty. The fighting stopped because there was no way to take back control of Taiwan without high casualties - on both sides. Since then, the CPC have been committed to taking back control of Taiwan peacefully. At the moment, the people of Taiwan continue to support independence - but also the One China Policy, which recognizes that there is only One China. The CPC wants to re-unify, but rather than doing that by force, they just maintain their position and encourage peaceful reunification. But there are still moments of tension, of course, each tests the responses of the other, the limits of their radar, and so on. But people aren’t dying.

        By contrast, the US is carpet bombing Iran, at the behest of Israel, because Iran threatens Israel’s lebensraum ambitions to turn the Middle East into Greater Israel. You really believe China is still as bad as the US? Seriously??

        • A_Chilean_Cyborg@feddit.cl
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          2 months ago

          bro, they have said over and over they want to invade, and the Taiwanese don’t want to do nothing to do with China anymore, specially the young ppl, they want to be their own thing.

          • bearboiblake [he/him]@pawb.social
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            2 months ago

            They’ve actually said the opposite, again and again, that they want peaceful reunification. They haven’t ruled out force, because they’re a sovereign state, and a sovereign state never renounces their ability to use force over the territory they claim. The opposite side does the exact same thing for the rest of China, too.

            the Taiwanese don’t want to do nothing to do with China anymore, specially the young ppl, they want to be their own thing.

            That’s great! Then they can and should remain peacefully independent, but if that ever changes in the future, then perhaps they can re-unite, assuming that the CPC remains open to re-unification at that point.

        • starelfsc2@sh.itjust.works
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          2 months ago

          The person they’re arguing with linked a state owned Chinese tabloid as evidence for their points. I don’t blame for not engaging.

          • bearboiblake [he/him]@pawb.social
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            2 months ago

            I’m the person they’re arguing with, and no I didn’t? I didn’t link anything, I wouldn’t even know where to find a Chinese tabloid and I’ve never read one!

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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            2 months ago

            Again, can you elaborate? I think you’re replying to the wrong comment, harambe69 hasn’t been arguing with anyone, they just posted a somewhat racist comment and left. What “state-owned tabloid” has anyone linked that discredits them entirely?

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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        2 months ago

        From the Associated Press:

        Taiwan’s opposition leader met Friday with Chinese President Xi Jinping at Beijing’s Great Hall of the People, the first such encounter in over a decade, with both sides affirming the need for maintaining peace around the self-ruled island that China claims as its territory.

        Both Xi and Cheng Li-wun, the head of the Beijing-friendly Kuomingtang Party, reiterated they wanted to move toward a peaceful reunification of Taiwan and the mainland, though it remains unclear how they would achieve it. China hasn’t ruled out the use of force and has stepped up its military exercises around Taiwan, sending warships and fighter jets closer toward the island and steadily poaching Taiwan’s few remaining diplomatic allies.

        Xi welcomed Cheng and her party’s representatives in the Great Hall of the People, where he usually meets world leaders, to a round of applause from both sides. “The larger trend of compatriots on both sides of the strait walking nearer, closer, and together will not change. This is a historical necessity. We have full confidence in this,” he said.

        “Although people on both sides of the Taiwan Strait live under different systems, we will respect each other and move towards each other,” Cheng said, adding: “We will seek systemic solutions to prevent and avoid war.”

        This is just the reality on the ground. Neither party wants war. The PRC reserves the right to millitant reunification, but is currently working towards peaceful reunification and simply waiting it out, until Taiwan wants it. The PRC has the luxury of time, here, as the PRC continues to rise economically and the US Empire continues to fall, it will only make more and more sense for Taiwan to want to further integrate with the mainland economically. Until then, the people of Taiwan want the status quo, and the PRC is fine to wait it out and continue to push for dialogue.

        • starelfsc2@sh.itjust.works
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          2 months ago

          First off it’s the opposition leader, not the president, who is vocal about Taiwan remaining sovereign. Second, if I threaten someone with annihilation, and they say “hey we can negotiate peacefully,” and I say sure I’ll negotiate but (in that article) “war is not off the table,” I as the person threatening them with annihilation am not being peaceful here.

          • cecinestpasunbot@lemmy.ml
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            2 months ago

            The president of Taiwan was elected with a minority of votes because the two opposition parties that support closer relations with the PRC could not agree on a joint candidate to run. In the Taiwanese legislature the KMT actually holds more seats than the president’s party.

            Also the PRC is not threatening Taiwan with annihilation. That’s just absurd. The PRC’s position is that it doesn’t want foreign countries interfering in Chinese political matters. If you didn’t know already, the US intervened in the Chinese civil war in order to defend a fascist dictator and has continued to give the RoC military support ever since. The PRC keeps the military option open as a deterrent against further US intervention not because it’s planning to invade.

            • starelfsc2@sh.itjust.works
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              2 months ago

              China has literally stated “we want to merge peacefully but war is not off the table.” Taiwan has said “we want to maintain the status quo.” https://www.business-standard.com/world-news/over-80-of-taiwanese-favour-maintaining-status-quo-with-china-survey-124022400130_1.html

              Annihilation is maybe the wrong word, but they risk an unwinnable war against the highest population country. They have 0 chance if China decides to strike, and China is likely kept at bay from other countries “interference.” China doesn’t want to destroy Taiwan, it just wants them to rejoin, and will threaten war if they do not comply.

              • cecinestpasunbot@lemmy.ml
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                2 months ago

                Liberals like you will condemn China for pursuing peaceful reunification and then cheer on Ukraine as it bombed civilians in Donetsk and Luhansk after they declared independence. Peace is war and war is peace I guess. You’re probably happy to admit that Russia violated Ukrainian sovereignty by intervening military in what was essentially a civil war. However when the US does the same exact thing you pretend it’s actually about protecting Taiwanese self determination? How gullible are you?

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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            2 months ago

            Taiwan is governed by the remnants of the former Chinese government, back when they were nationalists. Chiang Kai-Shek and his group fled to Taiwan, murdered the local opposition, and claimed they were still the legitimate government of all of China. The question isn’t if Taiwan is a part of China, but which government is legitimate.

            Over time, this has been complicated by the US Empire using Taiwan as a forward operating base. Some want a clean break, some want further integration, but now the majority want the status quo. What is deeply unpopular is war. Taiwan does not want to become Ukraine 2, they do not want the US Empire to provoke a hot war just to damage China at the expense of Taiwanese people.

            The CPC in all of this knows that the US Empire is failing, and that Taiwan will be increasingly pressured economically towards reintegration. All they need to do is wait, and they get what they want without firing a shot.

            • starelfsc2@sh.itjust.works
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              2 months ago

              None of this is false but that doesn’t mean China isn’t threatening military action and waiting for their chance to strike. Being peaceful with the threat of force is not the same as just being peaceful, if a mobster says “pay me off if you don’t want any trouble” they’re not peacefully negotiating. To be honest I’m surprised they haven’t taken more action against Taiwan, when trump would probably say “it’s their country, it’s their territory, its rightfully theirs.”

              • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                2 months ago

                Both governments consider themselves the legitimate governments of China, which includes Taiwan. Wanting to become an independent country entirely is a minority opinion in Taiwan. As such, the PRC as a sovereign nation of course will reserve the right to retake its own territory by force. It isn’t at all surprising that they haven’t taken more direct millitant action against Taiwan, though, for precisely the reasons I have said: they are willing to wait until Taiwan chooses to reunify. They gain nothing by striking Taiwan to take it by force, when they can just maintain the status quo until it works out in their favor.

                The reason it’s surprising to you is that you have the assumption that the PRC feels compelled to strike. This is something constantly fearmongered about by the west, but doesn’t actually hold water. By all measures, events seem to be moving in the exact direction the PRC predicts they will, which would make it a mistake to strike Taiwan.

        • 0x0@lemmy.zip
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          2 months ago

          as the PRC continues to rise economically and the US Empire continues to fall, it will only make more and more sense for Taiwan to want to further integrate with the mainland economically.

          Taiwan has TSMC, they don’t need China.

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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            2 months ago

            You can’t pin your entire economy on a single company in a single sector, especially when your performance isn’t certified forever.

  • wraekscadu@vargar.org
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    2 months ago

    China isn’t as successful at imperialism as the Americans. The American ruling class is just… Too good at being evil.

    Doesn’t mean that China and Russia aren’t imperialist though. They’re just unable to beat the US… For now…

      • wraekscadu@vargar.org
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        2 months ago

        Schizophrenia is a serious mental health condition that affects how people think, feel and behave. It may result in a mix of hallucinations, delusions, and disorganized thinking and behavior. Hallucinations involve seeing things or hearing voices that aren’t observed by others.

    • ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      China and Russia are taking over in the soft imperialism department, because some billionaire moron had to kill USAID. Let’s hope their soft imperialism won’t have really bad consequences human rights-wise (though the US also had a spotty record with that).

      • rockerface🇺🇦@lemmy.cafe
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        2 months ago

        Looking at human rights in russia… doesn’t look too good, chief, not gonna lie. At least China pretends for the media.

          • AdolfSchmitler@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            Dude… idk how I fell into it but there’s an account here on lemmy that goes around commenting shit like “fake news” and “your American state media lies to you and its so easy” on posts calling out what China is doing to Uyghurs. Basically denying any wrongdoing by China. Idk if they’re a bot or state agent or paid actor or what. I wonder if they’ll make an appearance on this post…

          • AdolfSchmitler@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            Ahh just scrolled further and they’re here lol. Name is Cowbee. The account is 2 years old, 17,000 comments. All they do is post pro-china shit everywhere they can.

    • Jmdatcs@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      Give them a few years. The belt and road initiative is set to bring levels of exploitation and wealth extraction never before seen. China gets shit done when it wants to and understands the long game.

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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        2 months ago

        This is pure projection.

        China is not debt trapping poor African nations. We can see that this isn’t the case when we can observe countries in BRI engaging in rapid development and industrializing, and this is confirmed by China forgiving tons of debt. The goal of China isn’t to make countries reliant on them, or to earn money from debt, it’s because China gains personally through mutual development. Here are some articles debunking the “debt trap” myth:

        There are many more examples I can use. China isn’t doing this out of the goodness of their own heart, but because they stand to gain from mutual development. A more developed global south means China is less reliant on the US Empire as a customer, provides new avenues to facilitate trade, and creates more markets for customers. The west harvests the global south for cheap labor and resources, and we can see hard comparisons in data between BRI participants and those imperialized by the west to see fundamentally different results.

        • Jmdatcs@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          They’re turning an entire continent into a sweatshop to feed their own greed and consumerism. They learned from the best! And they’re improving on it through the strength of single party central planning.

            • Jmdatcs@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              The measure they’re taking to address it is creating vassal states to turn into sweatshops.

              • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                2 months ago

                No? Where on Earth did you get that idea? They are focusing on raising wages and boosting consumption, lowering import fees from global south countries to help their rising industry, and are trying to boost incomes in the countryside.

                • Jmdatcs@lemmy.world
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                  2 months ago

                  Lol, Jesus dude! Are you just plagiarizing U.S. state department talking points from the mid 20th century on U.S. involvement in Southeast Asia and other places in the global south?

        • Resonosity@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          2 months ago

          Don’t forget that China recently removed all tariffs from Africa. Meaning goods imported to China from Africa are comparatively cheaper than from other countries, which gives Africa a leg up in competition.

          bUt ChInA iS iMpErIaLiSt

          • ManixT@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            Are you saying that removing tariffs from trade with one region means you cannot otherwise be imperialist? That’s completely illogical.

            • Resonosity@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              2 months ago

              Yes, liberal, please put words in my mouth and down my throat. It’s the only thing you know to do with American propaganda.

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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            2 months ago

            Yep! I mentioned it elsewhere this thread. Removing tariffs from global south countries is a part of boosting consumption, which is one of China’s more important economic problems it needs to tackle moving forward. It’s a win-win, African countries get to export finished commodities to Chinese consumers, and Chinese consumers get more access to goods. This helps build up African industry while also improving the lives of Chinese people.

    • marxismtomorrow@lemmy.today
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      2 months ago

      Because they don’t teach critical thinking in any part of the western world. Capitalism abhors critical thinking in the general populace and requires an unintelligent, unquestioning populace to continue to exist.

      • ManixT@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        What an absurd statement. “They don’t teach critical thinking in any part of the western world”. Are you insane?

        • marxismtomorrow@lemmy.today
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          2 months ago

          My dude half the west believes there’s such a thing as a ‘uyghur genocide,’ half believe Israel has ever been a victim, and most still believe China is somehow a dictatorship despite that being an ancient CIA psyop.

          There is no evidence a single person in the west has ever been taught critical thought, how to research claims, or that their government can lie through third parties that they’ve paid.

              • ManixT@lemmy.world
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                2 months ago

                Didn’t realize you had a monopoly on intelligence 😁

                Got any other blanket statements about “the west”? Should people start making the same comments about your people?

  • deathmetaldawgy@lemmy.ml
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    3 months ago

    oh god. Another one of these. I’ll bite. How is China imperialist? Bonus points if you don’t mention Uyghurs because that’s not imperialism and the zenz/ US propaganda has been widely debunked.

    • zeejoo@thelemmy.club
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      3 months ago

      How is China Imperialist

      12 dash line, Belt and road is just neo-colonialism debt traps and soft power grabs, consistent threats to the sovereignty of Bhutan, Taiwan, the Phillipines and more. Financial and material aid to both sides of the conflict in Myanmar, weapon sales to Russia for use in Ukraine, etc.

      You’re either incredibly dishonest or incredibly fucking stupid

    • nooch@lemmy.vg
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      3 months ago

      Depends on the definition. In Lenin’s Imperialism, the highest form of capitalism, he defines five criteria:

      And so, without forgetting the conditional and relative value of all definitions in general, which can never embrace all the concatenations of a phenomenon in its complete development, we must give a definition of imperialism that will include the following five of its basic features:

      1. the concentration of production and capital has developed to such a high stage that it has created monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life;

      2. the merging of bank capital with industrial capital, and the creation, on the basis of this “finance capital,” of a financial oligarchy;

      3. the export of capital as distinguished from the export of commodities acquires exceptional importance;

      4. the formation of international monopolist capitalist combines which share the world among themselves, and

      5. the territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers is completed.

      1 and 2 apply with some caveats, 3 and 4 are a yes (WTO, UN, BRICS, etc), and 5 should be seen through a soft-power neo colonialist lens with China’s influence in Africa for example.

      This is not meant to be anti-China or whatever, anything China has done pales in comparison with US imperialism, just that I don’t think it’s a completely baseless accusation.

    • xx3rawr@sh.itjust.works
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      2 months ago

      I’ll bite too. I live in the Philippines. I’m too stressed to even think about how impossibly cheap Chinese imports have displaced local industries. Walmart style.

      We have a long mostly harmless history with local Chinese entrepreneurs, but I’m talking about CCP-sponsored conglomerates and drug, gambling, and troll farms planted just around metros.

      It’s mostly soft power and undercover for now, but if the US isn’t looking, we’d be Belarus to Russia.

      Sike it’s not all softpower, we have the fucking South China Sea.

        • xx3rawr@sh.itjust.works
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          2 months ago

          Lol missed the point. If other powers aren’t watching, they’d do the same. For now they “only” do these (on top of my head):

          • debt traps
          • economic imperialism
          • install mass murdering/genocidal politicians and spies
          • kill unarmed fishermen and get away with it
          • ram our coast guard boats with their navy ships
          • smuggle drugs and human trafficking, then cast death penalty only to the coerced deliveryman
          • the thing with AI data centers in the USA, but replace AI with illegal online gambling. Oh, and promote gambming addicition, of course

          You know, things that won’t catch international attention but slowly but surely are fucking us up

            • xx3rawr@sh.itjust.works
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              2 months ago

              With all due fucking respect, this is not coming from US propaganda or making shit up. This is coming from MY daily life experience as a lower class around the metro. Most of this shit are barely documented online so I’m not surprised if anything here is news to you.

              Debts forgiven? Not without secret payment of land, water, and letting in CCP-owned companies. Within a decade, I can no longer buy local-grown produce from public markets, and no longer buy local-made clothes in my hometown who historically had the largest textile industry. It’s all Chinese imports and surplus.

              And it’ not difficult to understand anti-CCP ≠ pro-US. Literally nothing in my comments are “projecting” or defensive of the US. The US installed the Marcoses, CCP installed the Dutertes. Now that both have seats, they’re fucking us up undercovers, scrambling for who keeps the throne for themselves.

              And stating the obvious here, China is not communist. Both have been secretly genociding rural and indegenous minorities in the name of “culling communists.” The general public is even barely aware of this, it just happened under our noses and silenced with little discussion.

    • Godric@lemmy.worldOP
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      3 months ago

      “Widely debunked” is a funny way to say “I really like to downplay this”, but excluding the active genocide, China is actively yoinking and creating islands, debt trapping countries, etc

      • deathmetaldawgy@lemmy.ml
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        3 months ago

        Reeducation, or even whatever label you want to put on what China is doing with Uyghur Muslims is NOT genocide and not even close. And this post is about imperialism, not genocide, and genocide IS happening to Muslim countries with the direct support of almost every western country. Debt trapping which countries? Taiwan? Snatching up islands? Wtf are you talking about?

        • PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.ca
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          2 months ago

          Debt trapping, for example, laos.

          Still a lot better than what the USA does - better to build out country’s infrastructure and then hold them ransom with the debt than bombing schools, but it doesn’t make them good or beyond criticism.

              • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                2 months ago

                They frequently do, they can’t afford to run endless charity though, so loans with few restrictions are often used to help speed up development in a more sustainable way.

                • PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.ca
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                  2 months ago

                  But they haven’t.
                  Right now PRC holds all the assets and gets all the revenue, and laos holds all the debt and all the risks, for 30 years. China has used this to grant themselves positions of control over large parts of the infrastructure planning.

        • zeejoo@thelemmy.club
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          3 months ago

          Definition:

          Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

          Article II

          In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

          Killing members of the group;

          Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

          Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

          Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

          Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

          Source

          Reeducation camps are an effort to destroy Uighur culture and are absolutely a genocide. At least 4 of those 5 conditions are met. You don’t need gas chambers or mass extermination, that’s just one way genocide can manifest.

          Detainees had no privacy. They were monitored at all times, including when they ate, slept, and used the toilet. They were forbidden to talk freely with other detainees. When detainees were permitted to speak – to other detainees, guards, or teachers – they were required to speak in Mandarin Chinese, a language many of them, especially older people and those from more rural areas in Xinjiang, did not speak or understand. Detainees were physically punished if they spoke in a language other than Mandarin.

          There was insufficient food, water, exercise, healthcare, sanitary and hygienic conditions, fresh air, and exposure to natural light. Detainees had draconian restrictions placed on their ability to urinate and defecate. All detainees were required to “work” one- or two-hour shifts monitoring their cellmates every night. Many former detainees reported that during the first few days, weeks, or sometimes months after arriving at the internment camps, they were forced to do nothing but sit still – often in terribly uncomfortable positions – for nearly the entire day.

          At some point after arriving nearly all detainees were subjected to highly regimented classes. The typical schedule included three or four hours of classes after breakfast. Then detainees had lunch and a short “rest”, which often involved sitting still on a stool or with their heads still on their desks. After lunch there was another three or four hours of classes and then dinner, followed by a few hours to sit or kneel on a stool and silently “review” the day’s material or to watch more “educational” videos. At nearly all times during classes, detainees were required to look straight ahead and not to speak with their classmates. Classes often involved memorizing and reciting “red” songs – that is, revolutionary songs that praise the CCP and the People’s Republic of China.

          Source I highly recommend downloading and reading the whole report.

          On December 9, 2021, the Tribunal delivered its judgment. In its judgment, the Tribunal established the following facts. Hundreds of thousands to over one million were arbitrarily detained and exposed to cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment. Testimony described overcrowded cells, sometimes holding around 50 detainees in roughly 22 square meters (or 237 square feet), with little space to lie down. Detainees used buckets as toilets, monitored by Closed-Circuit Television (CCTV), with no privacy.10

          Detainees were tortured without any legitimate reasons. Witnesses identified a range of torture practices, such as fingernail removal, beatings, extended immobilization in “tiger chairs,” immersion in cold water, and confinement in cages too small to stand or lie down. Multiple testimonies described long-term heavy shackles and restraints, in some cases lasting for months.11

          Widespread sexual violence occurred, affecting both male and female detainees. One account described the gang rape of a young woman, about 20 or 21, in front of roughly 100 other detainees forced to watch. Female detainees faced sexual assaults with electric devices and metal rods. Some were raped by people who paid for access to detention facilities. Witnesses reported severe food deprivation (sometimes withheld as a punitive measure), solitary confinement in dark or always-lit cells, long-term sleep deprivation, and humiliation.12

          Deaths were linked to abuses in detention. Testimony indicated that younger detainees were occasionally taken from cells and subsequently disappeared. However, there is no evidence of systematic mass killings. In fact, many detainees were eventually released. Some were released after three to six months, others after years of imprisonment or repeated torture, though often only to be detained again.13

          Witnesses described various forms of nonphysical mistreatment, including mandatory political indoctrination where detainees were required to sing pro-CCP songs under threat of punishment. Detainees were given unidentified pills or injections, sometimes causing reproductive or psychological changes. Witnesses described unexplained blood draws and medical procedures. Testimonies included coerced abortions with some late terms, and claims of newborns killed after delivery.14

          Source

          You don’t get to be against one genocide and not another. Stop being a piece of shit shill and do some research.

          • pivot_root@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            Good luck convincing tankies with that definition. They will just claim the definition doesn’t count because “the UN is a Western imperialist facade pushing US propaganda.” The same goes for any source that doesn’t agree with their ideals, for that matter.

            • deathmetaldawgy@lemmy.ml
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              3 months ago

              You can literally go to xianxang today and talk to Uyghur Muslims. If that’s genocide yall don’t wanna hear about black people in USA… You’re all fuckin insane lol

              • antonim@lemmy.world
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                3 months ago

                If I were a zionist, I’d definitely use this sort of argument when talking about Palestinians. Lol you can go to West Bank and talk to them, therefore there’s no genocide.

                • deathmetaldawgy@lemmy.ml
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                  3 months ago

                  No, comparing what’s happening in the West Bank to fucking China is laughable and you know it. It’s disingenuous at best and at worst you’re willfully lying by comparing a real genocide to fucking Uyghurs. Try walking into Gaza like that.

      • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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        2 months ago

        How are y’all still upset that your little slave-owning, theocratic warlord state got liberatated 70 years ago?

        • 8oow3291d@feddit.dk
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          2 months ago

          The excuse of every imperialist. Even using the word “liberated”. Yellow man’s burden?

          • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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            2 months ago

            Damn, that’s racist. Can’t help yourself but call them yellow, can you?

            It’s not imperialist to liberate your own country from serfdom or slavery. Would you look at the northern states in the US liberating the slaves in the south and accuse people who supported that of “White Man’s Burden” shit? What a load of racist bullshit and slavery apologia. The fuck is wrong with you?

            Are you seriously trying to pretend to be a leftist while defending serfdom and calling Asians yellow?

            • 8oow3291d@feddit.dk
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              2 months ago

              liberate your own country

              Tibet was not China’s “own country”. It was imperialistically annexed.

              • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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                2 months ago

                That’s completely false.

                Tibet was part of China since at least the 17th century. After the fall of the Qing, countless little warlord states sprung up all over China, including Tibet. For some reason, some Westerners decided that one of those warlord states was legitimate. Don’t know why you never talk about all the other ones.

                I say some Westerners, because the only state that ever actually recognized Tibet as independent was Mongolia. The US fully supported Chinese claims over Tibet before the communists won, and never recognized it as independent even afterwards, nor has any other country. Even Taiwan claims, and has always claimed, Tibet as a part of China.

                But you don’t know shit about that. You saw a slogan saying “Free Tibet!” and latched onto it with zero knowledge of the actual history, because it sounded nice and China Bad (those “yellows!”)

                I’ll tell you what doesn’t sound so nice: Being forced to work to death and dying at 30. Which is exactly how things were in Tibet before the revolution reached their region. Under Communist leadership, the government poured resources into it and other poor remote regions and doubled the life expectancy. By any objective metric, quality of life greatly improved in Tibet once people were liberated from living in serfdom under, again, a literal theocracy.

                By contrast, Texas had only been part of the US for 16 years when they tried to secede to maintain their system of slavery. Not that it really matters, but 16 years is a hell of lot flimsier than 200+ years in terms of sovereignty. What does really matter is the absolutely deplorable, unforgivable conditions that the lamas (like the Confederate slavers) kept the people in, which again, you don’t know shit about, because you didn’t do your goddamn homework.

                This is what you’re defending in your ignorance.

    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      How is China imperialist?

      It helps if you insist the natural state of Chinese territory is a balkinized patchwork of ethnic enclaves fighting border wars “Romance of the Three Kingdoms” style, and the amalgamation of territory over 3000 years of dynastic rule gets dumped on the head of the current government.

      Bonus points if you don’t mention Uyghurs

      Uyghurs are the only Muslim group that the NAFO crowd are allowed to empathize with. And only when they’re local to the Tarim Basin. God help you if you’re a Uyghur living in Europe or Southeast Asia or the United States because they’re not welcome.

      the zenz/ US propaganda

      Mentioning the name of Adrian Zenz, the history of the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation (and where it gets its money), or any choice passages from the book Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation marks you out as a Wumao Far-Left Ultra-Stalinist Botfarm with cooties and a stupid face.

  • lechekaflan@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    Yeah, considering how trade in my country is heavily in favor of the Middle Kingdom, as most consumer goods are imported instead of being manufactured locally, we’re just witnessing many countries exchanging one hegemony for another.

  • zbyte64@awful.systems
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    3 months ago

    “Both sides bad” vibes projected onto geopolitics.

    If Israel treated Palestine like China treats the Uyghurs then Kamala would be president.

    • Alwaysnownevernotme@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      Hey hey hey you can’t just compare the two!

      That would be like comparing the amount of incarcerated people the US has to China and considering the populations.

      • Apytele@sh.itjust.works
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        2 months ago

        The wildest part to me was the international / immigrant nurse who was shocked that in the US we care enough about the mentally ill to bother putting them in prison. She was like “back home if they don’t have family that’s willing to take care of them we just physically throw and/or kick them out of the city and let them wander off and die.”

        • zbyte64@awful.systems
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          2 months ago

          As someone who gets to interact with the unhoused daily, we’re not putting the mentally ill in prison because we care but because they are bad for business.

          • Apytele@sh.itjust.works
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            2 months ago

            I’m aware. I’m telling you someone told me in other parts of the world the solution is letting wild animals eat them.

    • Grail@multiverse.soulism.net
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      2 months ago

      Here in Australia they took Aboriginal children away from their parents and put them on missions. They called them orphans while their parents were alive and trying to get them back. The missionaries would beat the children, rape them, force them to work, forbid them from speaking their language, send them outside in July without a jumper, send them to bed at 18 on bare mattresses without a sheet. If you’ve ever wondered why there are so many Indigenous people of mixed descent here in Australia, that’s your answer.

      The government justified it all by saying the missions were “educating” the children.

      If these Chinese education camps are anything like the Australian ones…

      • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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        2 months ago

        If these Chinese education camps are anything like the Australian ones…

        This is the wildest thing about propaganda, it’s always like, “If [thing] was so bad here, imagine how bad it must be in [place]!” No need to even involve facts or evidence, just use your imagination and let your preconcieved assumptions about other countries run wild.

        This is where the real currency of propaganda is framing. With the right framing, every flaw and every crime committed by the West can be twisted around to cast shade on its enemies.

        • zbyte64@awful.systems
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          2 months ago

          The same cynicism that reinforces that mode of propaganda is used at home to justify supporting genocidal candidates.

      • Tonava@sopuli.xyzdeleted by creator
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        2 months ago

        Nah I’m here for entertainment, and seeing other people argue and arguing with people who support concentration camps is just not entertaining to me. Same as transphobes, I’m not going to waste my time with that shit

  • justlemmyin@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    At the moment Chinese propaganda is working in a far superior way than murican propaganda, so yes, I agree with the me me.

    • starelfsc2@sh.itjust.works
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      I mean is it though :> 1/3rd of Americans think the election was stolen because of the right wing media network. I would guess it’s probably the same percent in China who blindly believe what the ccp tells them.

  • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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    2 months ago

    It’s not that the west practices “bad imperialism” while China practices “good imperialism,” China isn’t imperialist to begin with. In order to understand why, though, we need to understand what imperialism is to begin with, as well as what causes it.

    As capitalism monopolizes, it is compelled to expand outward in order to fight falling rates of profit by raising absolute profits. The merging of bank and industrial capital into finance capital leads to export of capital, ie outsourcing. This process allows super-exploitation for super-profits, and is known as imperialism. The domination of financial capital in an economy is what compels a country towards outward expansion, forcing privatization and market expansion via diplomacy on the one hand, and bombs in the other.

    This is undeniably true of western countries, who have reached the imperialist stage of capitalism by around the late 19th century, especially the UK, Germany, France, and the US Empire. After World War II, the US Empire became hegemonic, and the western countries vassalized. What’s important is that none of this applies to China.

    China is a socialist country. Public ownership is the principal aspect of the economy, it governs the large firms and key industries and dominates the overall character of the economy. Private ownership exists, but is secondary to that, filling in the gaps left behind by the huge state driven industries in secondary and underdeveloped areas, and is folded into the public sector as it grows. The capitalist class is not allowed to gain political power, and the working classes control the state.

    The key takeaway here for the purposes of imperialism, is that China’s banks are overwhelmingly publicly owned, as are its large firms and key industries, and thus there isn’t the same compulsion towards dominating the global south for profit. Instead, China has mutual cooperation agreements, such as the Belt and Road Initiative and placing zero tariffs on 53 African countries.

    The US Empire alone has hundreds of overseas millitary bases, while China has ~3. The US Empire bombed and destroyed countless countries over the last few decades alone, such as Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Iran, is embargoing Venezuela and especially Cuba, and more. China is not. The US Empire practices unequal exchange via maintaining monopoly on higher tech, China does not.

    China’s position in the global stage facilitates south-south trade, which bypasses unequal exchange, where the global north maintains monopolies on high tech industries so as to consistently charge monopoly prices in exchange with the global south. China charges non-monopoly prices, and this is why exchange with China, alongside the rise of the Belt and Road Initiative, has resulted in dramatic development in African and Latin American countries. This is ultimately the single greatest contributor to the downfall of imperialism globally, and is why right now there is such a large cold war with China.

    China is not debt trapping poor African nations. We can see that this isn’t the case when we can observe countries in BRI engaging in rapid development and industrializing, and this is confirmed by China forgiving tons of debt. The goal of China isn’t to make countries reliant on them, or to earn money from debt, it’s because China gains personally through mutual development. Here are some articles debunking the “debt trap” myth:

    There are many more examples I can use. China isn’t doing this out of the goodness of their own heart, but because they stand to gain from mutual development. A more developed global south means China is less reliant on the US Empire as a customer, provides new avenues to facilitate trade, and creates more markets for customers. The west harvests the global south for cheap labor and resources, and we can see hard comparisons in data between BRI participants and those imperialized by the west to see fundamentally different results.

    It’s clear at this point: participation in BRI results in sustained and rapid development and mutual cooperation, and working with the west results in sustained impoverishment. China gains from this mutual cooperation, but so do African countries, and unlike the west China doesn’t force trade at the barrel of a gun. That’s part of why it’s mutally beneficial, and results in development in Africa, vs underdevelopment and western enrichment.

    The simple reason why China isn’t economically compelled to imperialize is because it isn’t dominated by finance capital, and thus prioritizes long-term results, as we saw in the beginning. It’s simply better for everyone for there to be mutual cooperation, but western countries are dominated by the profit motive and finance capital, which compels them to take short term gains via looting the global south.

    All in all, trying to equate western imperialism with China’s trade agreements and multi-national projects is the height of projection, and highlights an utter lack of materialist analysis.