You know this is the kind of post that reddit no longer allows on their bots infested shit platform.
Based. Venezuela and Cuba too (I’m from Venezuela, founder of the ALBA-TCP/BAPO-PTT [Bolivarian Alliance for the Peoples of Our America - Peoples’ Trade Treaty], and Cuba is the main provider of military and political support of the Venezuelan Narcoterrorist State).
Yes, but english language political discussions are 70-80% russophobia and sinophobia by volume.
Russian / Chinese, but yeah.
Dear LARPERS, BOTS, AND THOTS.
It’s not that I don’t see the global order being capitalistic, I just stick to the devil I know.
I also like to pay attention to those that are killing babies and committing genocide at a alarming rate.
I also didn’t just tune in. I’ve been paying attention for a while and I’m always skeptical when certain voices that are no longer allowed to be heard.
I love Russia.
All you leftist forgot that the Soviet Union does not exist anymore.
The western powers made sure of that.
In the end it will be fascist fighting fascist with the Edward Bernays Allan Dules butt babies sitting there all confused as they are thrown into the meat grinder.
Timid, weak and confused spooked like a horse scared of your own shadow. Time to police language forget the material conditions and expect real people to listen to your stupid ideas.
europe, israel, and the united states are a threat to all of humanity.
Capitalism is crapitalism but a game is a game… what is now but a game.
I am surprised of how many upvotes there are, maybe it is a false flag. Defiantly counter productive nonsense.
Maybe it’s not actually organic.
Any Russians in the chat, do you got something to say? Or just a bunch of fascist in ukraine, europeans aka nato nancys, israelis and stank yanks in a room full of computers typing away.
Any people from China got something to say? I’d like to hear your opinions.
You people are isolated and clueless.
You are the useful idiots of the CIA.
You are the diet version of what is to be a leftist.
Sugar-free and way too sweet. You taste like medicine.
Does Operation Gladio and all the covert actions of the CIA just not seem relevant?
Ratios and proportions my dear boy!!! Ratios and proportions.
Does Russia not deserve its territorial integrity despite being capitalistic?
Given the track record of the United States who is a passive aggressive twat, always doing shit in the dark, yet I am not trying to convince you that Russia is a saint, but a victor of a crumbling hegemon.
Maybe they’re getting you all horned up so you can go kill people when you get drafted in World War III to die for the ambitions of pedophiles.
Personally, I think most of you leftist suck-ass. Timid weak and confused spooked like a horse scared of your own shadow. Time to police language forget the material conditions and expect real people to listen to your stupid ideas.
Russia is whooping your ass with Iran and China. Strategic patience is a 🏖️, isn’t it?
I find it to be strange that now ukraine is attacking Iran. Any real historian understands how World Wars work and how they start off regionally and then they explode everywhere. Any real leftist knows this is because of global capitalism but to sit there and act like Russia is somehow a bad guy in it all. It’s just ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.
It’s easy to be you because your opinions are state approved but you gonna eat those words one day.
You are flailing like an angry little weenies, out of control fools with your gizmos that are overpriced and insufficient.
It’s easy to care about people from afar despite which team you want to join, which tribe you want to subscribe but pretty soon you’re going to be so busy on yourself in your little lives of collapse.
Once the back and forth gets to the point where we can no longer produce oil that’s when you’re gonna see a collapse, even for you to have the ability to nag online and talk about shit you don’t understand.
I don’t focus on this Russia issue, because it’s not really an issue. Who is pushing forward the agenda of the global fascist capitalist elite is Israel, the uber rich in europe and the dying hegemon the yankee doodle dumb dumb empire.
Lets not forget about the gulf states. It is so funny when they get their ass clapped. 🤣
Russia doesn’t even matter. Really. 🥱
I don’t think about it ever. I mean pootin is an asshole, but I mean, my gawd, look at what we’re doing in the world. It’s unforgivable.
I am down voting the shit out of this by the way.
I am a pretty good cook. You know ratios and proportions.
It doesn’t matter. I have argued with literal western sources, like primary attributions what the chief of the NED said or the archived funding page of the NED, or academic works by Ukrainian scholars. Photos and western media articles about the Nazi problem in Ukraine.
Nothing with convince a liberal that the Nato isn’t a holy alliance of the pure and willing to bring freedom, justice and democracy to Ukraine. A full embrace of the fantasy that the west finally fights “the good fight” again.
All I want is peace and a diplomatic solutions, an end to the warmongering. But what do pacifists get today? Endless insults and mocking. The liberals and “leftists” are acting just like MAGAts and climate change deniers and anti-vaxxers. I look from one to the other and back again and see no difference.
All you want is for the Ukrainians to stop fighting back, you mean.
I don’t think for a moment Ukraine is getting NATO support for altruistic reasons, but that doesn’t mean NATO started this fight. Nobody in the EU wanted a proxy war with Russia. They were all making tons of money from Russia, and vice versa.
The Russian pretext for the invasion has shifted about a dozen times since the war started, and Putin’s little green men were all over the border region stirring up trouble ever since the invasion of Crimea. These are all documented facts too. He gambled he could get away with it without much of a fight, and lost the bet. Fuck around and find out I guess.
It’s also true that there is a well documented percentage of Ukrainians who are literally neonazis, like the Azov brigade. But surely one could reasonably assume the biggest reason Ukrainians hate the Russians nowadays is because Russia invaded their country, not some CIA psyop, or because they’ve been reading Meine Kampf to the kids at night.
Ukraine has a Nazi problem? Oh man, that is horrible!
Do Ukrainian Nazis invade rob and murder their neighboring countries? That would be a really bad thing for Nazis to do.
How many seats in the Ukrainian parliament are currently held by Nazis?
This is a pretty good 2026 article written by a Ukrainian academic: Ukraine’s military has a real Nazi problem | Responsible Statecraft
Or see the coverage of the recent reburial of Nazi collaborator with state honor by Zelensky. Note how different and prominent the headlines are between Israel newspapers and the western mainstream newspapers.
The bigger question though is who got into power and how during the regime change:
Read a bit from this book written by another Ukrainian academic scholar: The Maidan Massacre in Ukraine: The Mass Killing that Changed the World | Springer Nature Link. From the conclusions:
The analysis of various evidence, such as synchronized videos, audio recordings, testimonies of the absolute majority of wounded Maidan protesters, and some 500 other witnesses, shows beyond any reasonable doubt that the Maidan protesters and the police were massacred by Maidan snipers located in Maidan-controlled buildings in a rationally organized operation with involvement of far-right and oligarchic elements of the Maidan opposition. This mass killing led to the overthrow of the Yanukovych government and ultimately to the Russian annexation of Crimea, the civil war and Russian military interventions in Donbas, and the Ukraine-Russia and West-Russia conflicts which Russia escalated by illegally invading Ukraine in 2022.
This isn’t just this guy saying it, or propaganda, or a conspiracy theory - a 2023 jury trial verdict in Ukraine comes to the same conclusion after reviewing all the evidence. Buried trial verdict confirms false-flag Maidan massacre in Ukraine – Canadian Dimension
If you really want to know the truth and do not trust these articles you can download the original trial verdict in Ukrainian and try google translate. Unfortunately I have not found a way to do a full english translation myself because the verdict is a 14mb html file.
So tell me, if true, is this important at all? To the question of who came into power? Of how this is pretty much ignored or labeled disinfo?
Do Ukrainian Nazis invade rob and murder their neighboring countries? That would be a really bad thing for Nazis to do.
108 civilian protesters and 13 police officers were murdered in the “Revolution of Dignity”.
Does it excuse Russia’s invasion? No. But it makes it much less of a simple and one sided situation. All of this after the CIA/NED chief bragged about wrestling Ukraine away from Russia. See Anatomy of a Coup: How CIA Front Laid Foundations for Ukraine War for more western sources.
So you can mock and laugh all you want. The facts remain the ugly facts when you use “non Russian aligned” sources.
So what’s your solution? Let Ukraine put their weapons down so that Russia would annex and genocide them?
Let’s not forget that Russia is a nazi state, hellbent on promoting Russian ethnic supremacy.
Fuck Ukraine and fuck your fake concern for anything but yourself
Lol, lmfao even.
Fuck Palestine and fuck your fake concern for anything but yourself
Hmm, methinks one is unaware of the hypocrisy.
One is an actual genocide being carried out with the full support of the US, the other is atrocity propaganda in support of a proxy war being carried out by the US. If you find yourself agreeing with the US government for any reason at any time you need to seriously consider the possibility that you’ve been fooled.
One major reason that Nazis are bad is their propensity for invading, robbing, and murdering the people of their neighboring countries.
If your premise is that Russia is “obviously” is a fascist nazi state hellbent on genocide, there is obviously no solution but constant war. If that were the case I would obviously agree with you. But there is no evidence for your premise. Russia was an antagonist interfering in other countries before the Ukraine regime change, but they didn’t engage in conquest and genocide. Nor do I know of state sanctioned discrimination between the different ethnicity living in Russia.
Did you forget about Crimea?
So because Russia had other conflicts where they didn’t commit genocide, it’s impossible for them to commit genocide in the future? Or if they do start doing genocide them it’s actually someone else’s fault?
Weird amount of genocide denialism and victim blaming from a self processed passifist
Woah that is the most insane argument I’ve read so far. With that logic we should attack everyone because they could commit genocide. And if you disagree you’re a genocide denier lol.
Argument for what? I’m pointing out that you’re doing genocide denial and suddenly I’m saying someone should get attacked? Being against genocide denial doesn’t mean I think anyone should get attacked you goof.
Notice how I said absolutely nothing about whether I think the war is great or what anyone should be doing, and yet you projected all these views onto me, just because I said genocide denial is wrong. Rethink your life, friend.
No, no, you’re definitely in the wrong here. Let’s go through the play-by-play:
Famko said: “Let Ukraine put their weapons down so that Russia would annex and genocide them? Let’s not forget that Russia is a nazi state, hellbent on promoting Russian ethnic supremacy.”
AlteredEgo said: “But there is no evidence for your premise. Russia was an antagonist interfering in other countries before the Ukraine regime change, but they didn’t engage in conquest and genocide. Nor do I know of state sanctioned discrimination between the different ethnicity living in Russia.”
You said: “So because Russia had other conflicts where they didn’t commit genocide, it’s impossible for them to commit genocide in the future? Or if they do start doing genocide them it’s actually someone else’s fault?”
So here we see someone positing that Russia will genocide Ukraine if Ukraine surrenders and someone saying that there’s no evidence of this in the history of the RF for the last 30 years and there’s no evidence of it happening now. You said that just because Russia didn’t commit genocide previously doesn’t mean it’s impossible for them to commit genocide in the future.
So now we have AlteredEgo coming back to say, paraphrased “[wait, are you saying that if it’s possible that Russia might commit genocide against Ukraine in the future that this is sufficient for why we should fight a war of total domination against them?”]
Because that’s the context of the thread you jumped into
Yes, I read their posts just fine, nothing you said is news. I objected that “there’s no evidence Russia has ever done genocide before” is not a coherent argument against the allegations that Russian forces are committing genocide previously. I also disagree there’s no evidence it’s happening now, but the particular argument that “they didn’t do it in a different war, so they can’t be doing it in this one” is just absurd on its face and was the one I wanted to reply to the most.
They’re literally taking children from Ukraine to give to Russian families so that they Russified, as part of their Russification programs. Which is classified as cultural genocide, if you didn’t know.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abductions_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_war
While it’s true that it classifies as a genocidal act under Article II of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, it’s not the only criteria. To be technically classified as genocide, you need to prove the clear intent of destroying a specific group, either in part or fully.
Judging by how this war started, and by both sides’ behaviour, I don’t think it’d be ruled as genocide in any international court or tribunal. Cases formally ruled as genocide are rare, precisely because it’s not easy to prove the intent.
And frankly, it’s rarely present. In almost all cases governments are after leverage, power, or resources, and could not care less about the nations or ethnic groups.
Even in Israel’s case it took a long time to produce enough evidence for the UN and ICC to formally declare a genocide is ongoing. And look how obvious that one is.
Cool story kiddo
It is a war crime and rises to ethnic cleansing.
I am however doubting the numbers since there are no independent observers in this war. You can’t just unquestionably take one sides word for things. Anyone in any western dominated institution that questions the narrative about the Ukraine war gets fired. There are plenty of stories about Ukrainian war crimes as well, but unlike OP makes it sound I do not believe Russia propaganda either.
Also whenever there is war, there are war crimes and atrocities. That is why war should be prevented at all costs.
Also “cultural genocide” is a made up word invented to be used against China. It is literally imperialist propaganda, part of the more than 1.6 billion dollar the US spend on this.
So I do not see how this justifies endless war. A diplomatic peace treaty should obviously see a return of these children.
Okay so, if you’re a pacifist, then clearly you believe that Russia should leave the currently occupied Ukrainian territories, including Crimea, since Russia obviously started this war first and all hostilities should cease between the two nations.
Sure, that would be nice. I doubt however Russia is going to go for that.
Russia made their demands pretty clear at the beginning and they weren’t unreasonable. These demands have never been discussed in mainstream media and are always dismissed. By now it is much harder to get to a reasonable diplomatic solution.
I am however doubting the numbers since there are no independent observers in this war. You can’t just unquestionably take one sides word for things.
The ICC has accused Maria Lvova Belova of being the person in charge of the child abductions/ethnic cleansing. They are neutral and independent enough for me.
A diplomatic peace treaty should obviously see a return of these children.
I fully agree.
“There’s no evidence”… Except for the damn war they started and continue to this day with the explicit intent of conquest.
No no komrade, is special 3 day operation, Ukraine totally attacked first, Russia is just bro, trust us.
Let’s face it, Russian propaganda is a symptom. Trump style Republicans are the cause (Russia spends big on opportunities they provide).
…and one could argue establishment Democrat complicity is what enabled Trump style hard right populism.
The world isn’t America. Your current crop of republicans are only a symptom of the global push of the alt-right.
I’m not American, but I can at least recognize their cultural Hegemony in the western world.
Absolutely. Of course the world isn’t black and white, it’s not divided into good guys and bad guys, and there’s degrees to things. If micronesia decides to become highly imperialist, all of a sudden, I’m not going to care as much. If, all of a sudden, China starts invading a bunch of its neighbors, then that’s a huge deal to me!
If one country is responsible for 12 million deaths abroad in its imperial dealings in the past decades, and it has invaded and bombed more countries than I care to list here (I’m not sure if lemmy has a character limit, and spelling all this out is less effort and fewer characters than the actual list of countries), then I’m going to care about that country a whole bunch more than I’m going to care about a country that’s invaded two countries and whose death count abroad doesn’t even hit 7 digits.
Anyway my point is pick your battles, and focussing on China over America is really missing the mark. If you go by the actual numbers on imperialism, you are focussing on a country that is literal orders of magnitudes less bad. Complete waste of time.
If one country is responsible for 12 million deaths abroad in its imperial dealings in the past decades
Do you have any sort of source for that? I can find 4.5-4.6 million for the war on terror and that is being very very loose with the term US imperialism has caused(like includes indirect deaths and includes deaths caused by all sides in pretty much every conflict you could consider part of the war on terror)
We don’t even need to look at war, the death toll from the USA’s bipartisan consensus on collective punishment via brutal economic sanctions is 40M people over the last 50 years. Without firing a single shot. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-109X(25)00189-5/fulltext
15 - 45 million deaths over a 2 year period but the U.S. is evil for economic sanctions resulting in 40 million deaths over 50 years.
The U.S. could cut ties with every nation on Earth and you people would still be blaming us for deaths on the other side of the globe.
Bro, I stare at goats for a living; I don’t kill them, I just make them ejaculate. If you don’t get the reference to the movie about how America does counterintelligence like I do for my job I think I do for the aliens, you should watch The Men Who Stare at Goats and become enlightened to the degree of the game being played. Operation Mockingbird was over fifty years ago, people. MKULTRA and Star Gate are the same program.
Funny, bcs I notice pretty much everyone who talks about “Russian Propaganda” uses that to mean “anything that contradicts the US state department and billionaire owned media narrative about US geopolitical adversaries”
You notice people slurping up one propaganda while you’re slurping up another, and think you’re smarter than they are.
So that’s a definite “yes” on believing everything the US State Department has to say about the geopolitical adversaries of the US?
Oh, you’re just a straight up tankie lmao. Ta-ta!
Damn, it usually takes two or three rounds of replies to get them to just admit it like that.
Not beating the allegations lol
Have you stopped beating your wife yet? Yes or no. If you don’t answer I will interpret that as a “no”.
Can’t stop what you never started!
That’s exactly what a domestic abuser would say!
“Both sides are the same! I am very smart.”
Yes, those two are the same. They’re not two different sides. The side opposite them both is woke, learns what propaganda looks like, recognizes it, refuses it, and doesn’t employ it as a tactic. Get outta here trying to paint me as a centrist when the common enemies of mankind are all on the side of rape, genocide, and greed.
Then surely you would know that NATO’s propaganda is far more pervasive and commonplace than that of non-NATO countries, and that just because another source disagrees with NATO’s official message it’s not necessarily propaganda (at least, not one that fabricates evidence)?
Then surely you would know that NATO’s propaganda is far more pervasive and commonplace than that of non-NATO countries, and that just because another source disagrees with NATO’s official message it’s not necessarily propaganda (at least, not one that fabricates evidence)?
Yes I know that. It is propaganda, though. I mean, it’s pretty fuckin obvious. Hilariously so. I get that it works really well on uneducated people living in enforced ignorance, but I’m not one of them. You’re a faux-communist dictatorship propaganda sockpuppet and you stick out like a sore thumb.
Hint: maybe you shouldn’t all post this dreck on .ml accounts.
Try harder halfwit
“… in favor of Russian state departament and oligarch owned media narrative”
ftfy, now fuck off
Why not loathe the existence of every nation state on earth? The worst religion is nationalism, and there is stuff competition.
Way ahead of you
Nice instance name 👍
They’re after my stuff?!
ML discovers anarchism.
Spending time on Chinese social media has shown me platforms that read exactly like the garbage from the right wing talking heads here on Twitter. Extreme nationalist sentiment is very, very, common. I have seen soooo many memes expressing desire to just wipe out the Philippines, and just repopulate it with mainland Chinese. Memes about their eventual control over Africa, which uses surprisingly western racist stereotypes to portray Africans. So much discussion that mirrors MAGA like behavior, in many ways, but just discussing the greatness of China, instead. So many who, at least claim, to wholeheartedly believe revisionist, extremely idealized, versions of China’s past, often including things that just are not physically possible. There is a lot of open talk about what China is going to do to so many of it’s neighbors when it over takes the US, and NATO recedes from the region. I stopped going on their, because it was just becoming more, and more, X-China. Then my translator stopped using social media there, expect for work, as well, and now I just can’t.
Friends of mine who have spent the past 20+ years living in China are reporting seeing more, and more, of it offline too, when politics was not something Chinese would publicly really talk about, especially to foreigners. However, especially in the past 10 years, they said their open expression of xenophobia, hardline nationalist sentiments, desire to take, and punish other countries, has become almost common in certain social spaces there, and it is worrying them. These people moved to China after studying Chinese language, culture, and history, for many years, including attending Chinese universities. They loved it there. Now they are talking about how it is sounding more, and more, like the rhetoric you get from flag wavers in the US.
So I do not trust China to maintain it’s non-expansionism once NATO not longer controls so many of the waters around them. Nationalism is popular their, and the idea of finally taking revenge for the century of humiliation only grows.
So I do not trust China to maintain it’s non-expansionism once NATO not longer controls so many of the waters around them.
Right. China bad, I forgot. This isn’t sinophobia at all.
Do you have anything else than anecdotal evidence? How much of a percentage of the Chinese social media can you scan for this type of ultra-nationalist and fascist content? There are like 1 billion people there.
decides to become highly imperialist, all of a sudden, I’m not going to care as much. If, all of a sudden, China starts invading a bunch of its neighbors, then that’s a huge d
China is a country which throw ethnic minorities into concentration camps and executes political prisoners. Workers are exploited to the point where they throw themselves off the roofs of factories. It’s an entire society where the only way you can advance is by screwing the people below you.
So yeah, China is bad.
So you think the unhinged ramblings of an Austrian Christofascist have some kind of merit? That’s all I’m getting from this comment.
“It is known”
It is so annoying to hear people prop up China or Russia and North Korea as these moral islands. There is no moral outpost in the world.
I think most anarchists do exactly that. The obvious tension is that marxists want to replace one state with another, whereas anarchists would prefer not to swap one yoke for another.
Is there such thing as a Marxarchist? Lol. I read Marx, but don’t believe in swapping one ruler for another, or that one governing body is somehow magically morally above another.
Marxxxxanarchisting.
There is anarcho-Communism but Marx’s philosophy is very state-centric, even if it does ultimately oppose the existence of a state.
If you’ve read Marx, I’d suggest reading the anarchist criticisms of him by Kropotkin, Proudhon, and Bakunin.
I’m not well-versed on those yet, so definitely piquing my interest. Thanks!
Conquest of Bread by Kropotkin is an absolute must read.
I actually started reading this a while back. This is a good reminder to go back to it.
the most common strain of anarchism these days is anarchocommunism, which is by and large a movement that is defined by defiance of all hierarchy and broad agreement with Karl Marx on matters of economics as they apply to hierarchical violence
I do!
“We can talk about socialized healthcare and the evils of capitalism all day, but before we go any further I need you to pass this two-factor authentication by criticizing China and Russia.”
“We can talk about socialized healthcare and the evils of capitalism all day, but before we go any further I need you to pass this two-factor recognizing that the US’s military/prison industrial complex has done more harm to the world since WWII than China Russia and Iran.”
Yes actually
This but unironically
“Have you condemned Hamas today?”
This comment is so real it hurts.
I just had someone trying to convince me that Russia can’t be imperialist because they oppose the US, an imperialist nation.
… that’s not the definition of “imperialist,” my dear tankie.
Not sure if linking it so others can laugh/cry is “brigading” worthy of getting me banned off of various Lemmy communities/instances or not.
"employing both hard power and soft power”. russia only uses military might (hard power)
What a mind-bogglingly stupid thing to say
irredentism doesn’t make a country imperialist
I needed a good laugh.
Never heard the word “irredentism” before, looked it up. It’s literally fascist logic. Do tankies seriously not realize that the logical endpoint of irredentism is a world made up exclusively of ethnostates?
If you actually read what the person was saying, they said:
i do not support the russian invasion of ukraine btw.
that being said, irredentism is still awful. i’m ideologically against all forms of killing, and that includes the russian attack on ukraine. just so we’re clear here, this is just about definitions, i’m not trying to argue that russia attacking its neighbors is good in any way.
Marxists tend to use a specific definition of imperialism, and that user’s position is that while Russia does engage in irredentism (bad), like invading Ukraine, they do not fit the Marxist definition of imperialism (which is more concerned with resource extraction on a global scale). This Marxist definition goes back at least to Lenin, so it isn’t something that they just made up (as they were accused of in the thread), but the common meaning today is different.
This is being misinterpreted or distorted here into, “Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is fine because it’s irredentism” which was very clearly not what they were saying. What they were saying is that irredentism is bad (including the war in Ukraine), but that it is a distinct thing from imperialism.
They’re still doing apologia by playing with definitions to argue that not only is Russia not imperialist, but they’re anti-imperialist. Stating that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is irredentist and not imperialist carries the assumption that Russia’s officially stated reasons for invading Ukraine are truthful when they are clearly not. Russia wants Ukrainian territory not because it’s populated by ethnic Russians, but because they want to exploit the natural resources contained therein. Irredentism is the justification for imperialism, they are not mutually exclusive.
Russia wants
It’s inherently difficult and subjective to speculate about motivations, and doubly so when talking about a country with multiple groups with their own motivations. Of course, in any conflict, enemy countries will be assigned the worst motivations possible, which is why virtually every conflict draws comparisons to Nazis, and the idea that the enemy will just keep attacking forever if they are not defeated. This was said about Vietnam (Domino Theory) and Afghanistan (“if we don’t fight them there, we’ll be fighting them here”). Those examples show that motivations assigned to enemy countries are often inaccurate.
I don’t think it should be considered “apologia” to express reasonable skepticism that the motivations of a rival country aren’t what some people speculate. Especially when they’re still assigning a negative motivation to said country, just a different negative motivation than the one you assign. That’s kind of a ridiculous degree of purity testing, “It’s not enough to condemn Russia, you have to agree with my exact assessment of their motivations, otherwise you’re doing apologia by condemning them in the wrong way.”
As they said, they condemn both Russia’s invasion and irredentism in general, so my main point was to correct your misunderstanding, when you asked if “tankies” don’t realize that irredentism leads to negative results.
Trying to divine Russia’s True Motivations for invading Ukraine is a total Red Herring side show distraction in the context of this discussion.
The problem we’re discussing is that tankies employ definitions gymnastics to escape giving traditionally capitalist negative labels to their beloved authoritarian dictatorships, like “imperialist” and “tyrant.”
“Russia is not imperialist because they only invade for irredentist reasons” and “Russia is not imperialist because they oppose imperialist nations” are both half-cooked, dumb assertions.
It doesn’t matter if Russia invades other countries and takes their resources because they think the Bible says they should, because there are people with similar genetics in neighboring countries, or because Putin is bored; it’s still imperialist.
Imagine if someone said the USA is not imperialist because they’re only bombing Iran to fulfill a biblical prophesy, so they’re actually just theocratic. That’s obviously a ridiculous thing to say and you wouldn’t jump in to defend them because you’re biased to defend tankies but not western capitalists.
If they’re going with a niche definition rather than the common definitions everyone uses, they should have stated that to prevent the confusion and argument that it seeded, as I said further down in the argument.
I actually agree with you on that. However, “being too prone to using Marxist definitions and terminology” does not warrant labelling them as a “tankie” or “Russian propagandist.”
It’s this sort of thing that makes me see every accusation of “tankie” as a complete joke. If you can literally say, word for word, “I do not support the Russian invasion of Ukraine” and still get called a tankie and Russian propagandist, then those words have no meaning, aside from, “You disagreed with a liberal about literally anything.”
Did their condemnation of Russia not give you a moment’s pause before dismissing them as a Russian propagandist and misrepresenting their positions to others afterwards? It seems like you just recognized that they’re not part of your political in-group so you ignore everything and jump straight to labelling them a fascist. Yes, they communicated in a way that’s somewhat confusing, but you’re much more at fault for jumping to those unwarranted accusations.
I actually agree with you on that. However, “being too prone to using Marxist definitions and terminology” does not warrant labelling them as a “tankie” or “Russian propagandist.”
That’s not what I was asserting, no.
The rest of your comment soapboxes on that straw man so I’ll not respond to it.
Even if we take the assertion that they are doing apologia for Russia as true; the accusation of ‘tankie’ is strange. As if people who identify as communist have never heard of the fall of the USSR.
Maybe it would make sense when defending China in some contemporary contexts, but Russia?
It all reminds me of how George Bush used the term terrorism. Anyone who thought we need a different approach to respond to 9/11 than GWB was ‘letting the terrorist win’. Now anyone who thinks we need to find a different approach other than throwing the military industrial complex at the war in Ukraine is a tankie.
Do these same people think the war in Iran would be better if China got involved. Of course not, that would be insane. But change China to US and Iran to Ukraine and all of a sudden they support it.
The point is to have more skepticism toward all militarism; that’s not to say militarism is never justified. But NATO was literally built to contain the USSR, it worked on some level, the USSR fell. Russia’s militarism toward Ukraine is completely unjustified, but their complaint about still being contained NATO is valid. They subjected their people to a ton of economic hardship in the 90s to appease the west. But we can’t disband or renegotiate NATO because too many people benefit from it staying how it is.
The answer to the Ukraine war was to bring Russia into the western block on more equal terms 30 years ago. Now the situation is fucked, it gets more dangerous to more people every day it goes on.
It’s more or less exactly the content of this post here. Literal Russian propaganda, I’m sure. Couldn’t confirm 100% because I don’t waste my precious time checking what Russia has to say about their invasion, but I’m sure the term/topic of “irredentism” comes up and never “invasion” or “genocide.”
Couldn’t confirm 100% because I don’t waste my precious time checking what Russia has to say about their invasion, but I’m sure the term/topic of “irredentism” comes up and never “invasion” or “genocide.”
Irredentism is a negative word, nobody would use it in their own propaganda to describe their own actions. Furthermore, the user you were talking to clearly and explicitly condemned Russia’s invasion of Ukraine:
i do not support the russian invasion of ukraine btw.
You seem to have misunderstood what they were saying, and the idea that they’re spouting “literal Russian propaganda” while explicitly condemning the invasion, and labelling it an invasion, is completely absurd.
I guess that’s why you felt the need to pretend they didn’t label it as an invasion. I do wish y’all would practice a slightly higher degree of intellectual honesty though.
Ah yes, let’s complain when people post factual memes about countries that both commit genocide, and are both heavily invested in destabilizing western governments
I take it you’re one of those “free” thinkers too?
How hard is it to recognize that, yes, the US is fucking evil, yes, always has been, but that the exact same goes for Russia and China? Ooohh, what a concept, multiple parties being evil? *brain explodes
Anything’s possible when you make shit up
Jesus Christ can you at least write like a normal person? Why can’t Americans just admit that their country suck and leave it at that?
Why can’t Americans just admit that their country suck and leave it at that?
It’s a good question. Because our land is beautiful and a lot of us are working to keep it that way. Because we still see lots of people trying to come here for a better life. There are much fewer now, and a lot of us have deep shame for what the asshole in power has done to their communities. Despite appearances, a lot of us respect and admire them for taking the hard, unwanted jobs that nevertheless still need to get done. We still believe in what the Statue of Liberty stands for despite anything the asshole tries to do to it. Yes, we functionally conquered the world when we became the sole superpower after the Soviet Union fell apart. But we also led the world with science, inventions, entertainment, and aid. That’s lost now, and a lot of us deeply resent everyone who had a hand in ruining that.
We are still working to make ourselves better.
Yes, we functionally conquered the world when we became the sole superpower after the Soviet Union fell apart. But we also led the world with science, inventions, entertainment, and aid. That’s lost now, and a lot of us deeply resent everyone who had a hand in ruining that.
Oh. So it’s because you haven’t studied history. Got it.
Read your words. You are trying to reclaim a lost position of “goodness” for the USA, that was lost through the bad actions of bad people. You are trying to reclaim the position of helping the world, being a beautiful country that respects others and is welcoming.
We call that “Blue MAGA”. You’re imagining a time before the Rs fucked everything up and trying to move “forward” to reclaim the position of “good”.
The USA was never good. Not only did FDR put anyone vaguely asian looking into concentration camps, the administration stole all of their commercial property and wealth. Not only that, but the FDR administration established the entirety of racial redlining. The USA has been at war for >90% of its existence, and half of the years it wasn’t at war, it was engaged in the massive chattel slavery and maintenance of the genocide of indigenous peoples. The USA wasn’t taken over by racist pedophilic raping oligarchs, it was founded by them. Trump doesn’t hold a candle to the evils of Thomas Jefferson and George Washington.
As long as you believe in some mythical past where the USA was a net good for the world, you will never be able to understand why the rest of the world wants to see your country destroyed and dismantled.
I understand. My question was: why can’t Americans NOT involve Russia, china or whichever other superpower to make themselves seem better? It’s ok to just admit that you suck and leave it at that.
I didn’t downvote you. I think the answer to that is that all humans everywhere, Americans included, want to immediately jump to whatabboutism to save face.
The concept of having more then two parties does indeed stupify the liberal mind.
For the haters, the limit is one.
There will be no third party. The bank rolled two party system needs two bags of dildos and they will stop at nothing to crush any change from the bottom. The third party will be split between two optically moderates from both parties as plants. The stank yanks got amnesia… talking out both sides of the mouth unable to balance their contradictions. It is agonizing to watch since I share their inheritance.
I can’t tell if this is directed at me or a hypothetical conversation with a tankie.
I’m 90% sure they’re directing it at a hypothetical tankie.
but that’s not even what this post is suggesting we do. It’s just recognizing that China and Russia are also imperialist states, so we should be mindfull of where the information we consume comes from, since they’re all shoving propaganda down our throats and pitting us against one another, for their own imperialist intentions.
Exactly. I’ll never understand why certian leftists hold them up as examples to be followed instead of countries like Sweeden or Norway where every quality of life indicator is undeniably better.
If you want an actual answer, it’s because Sweden and Norway continue to participate in imperialism by propping up their economies through exploitation of the global south.
These are capitalist countries, social democracies, not socialist countries. The underlying contradictions that lead to problems under capitalism have not been resolved, so the problems inherent to capitalism persist. The only reason they seem better at this time is because of the exploitation of foreign workers and their participation in the financial models exploiting the global south.
It’s clear that the Nordic model of social democracy is unsustainable (because it’s just capitalism with more social reforms) and has slowly been eroding since the dissolution of the Soviet Union. This unsustainability is also clearly recognized and discussed openly within those countries, which is why they explicitly state that the solutions are austerity or the exploration of foreigners.
Bedrock based
I mean. This isn’t the clearest meme is it? Lol
You’re so brave for agreeing with Western imperialists about their enemies.
Westerners do imperialism, and that’s wrong. But westerners also say “Imperialism is wrong”, which proves that they are critically thinking.
The Insidious Evil Easterners do double-plus imperialism, which is even wronger. And they don’t even realize its wrong, because they have been brainwashed.
That’s why Westerners need to fight the Insidious East and defeat them. Then the people will be liberated and the West - which was only doing imperialism in self-defense - can finally enact a lasting peace that will bring about a global utopia.
Most idiot leftists don’t get this, because they flunked out of college and don’t understand how economics works.
Some edits? :p
Imperialist nation states do imperialism, and that’s wrong.
But Imperialist nation states also say “Imperialism is wrong”, which proves that they are critically thinking.The Insidious Evil EasternersOther imperialist nation states also dodouble-plusimperialism,which is even wrongerand that’s also wrong. Andtheya good portion of their citizens don’t even realize its wrong, because they have been so brainwashed.That’s why
Westernersthe proletariat needs to fight theInsidious Eastimperialist nation states and defeat them. Then the people will be liberated andthe West - which was only doing imperialism in self-defensethe people - can finally enact a lasting peace that will bring abouta global utopiasomething way less shitty than we what have now.Most idiot leftists don’t get this, because they flunked out of college and don’t understand how economics works. [perfect, no notes].
That’s why
Westernersthe proletariat needs to fight theInsidious Eastimperialist nation states and defeat them.Unfortunately, you’re just spouting pro-MAGA Populist Russian Whataboutist Both Sides Propaganda.
Most idiot leftists don’t get this, because they flunked out of college and don’t understand how economics works. [perfect, no notes].
Never let it be said the moderators of Lefty Memes are above some self-crit
Funny you think criticism of russian propaganda equates to support for the west
De facto support. If there’s a conflict and the West is on one side, then if you oppose the side the West is fighting you are supporting the West. There’s no secret third way that lets you keep your hands clean. You have to pick a side, and you have picked the West’s side in Ukraine.
I guess this community doesn’t want to talk about that, though, so my comment was removed.
An incredible false dichotomy you presented there. Whatever you need to tell yourself i guess
Its not a false dichotomy you’re just spineless
I can be against the Russian invasion of Ukraine AND be against the U.S.'s attacks on Iran. Insane you think that isn’t an option.
Keep name calling on the internet tho, love it when people do that cuz it means they have nothing else :D
It’s a spineless option, you’re doing state department volunteer work and you should be ashamed
Seriously. I support both Ukraine and Iran in their wars.
Like, just rhetorically? Or are you jet-setting between the two battlefronts?
Definitely the latter.
That explains the hammock.
i support the working people. sometimes as an expedient that means a small degree of support of national entities, but the most important thing is the freedom of the people.
Any independent thinker should indeed seek to critically understand multiple perspectives, yes. Although even just being able to formulate perspectives of other countries, or being willing to challenge blatant misinformation will get you accused of being an imperialist by left-posturing Western chauvanists.
You can make the argument for Russia but I really don’t understand how China, a country that has been at peace for over 40 years and which is developing an alternative economic sphere such that countries are not forced to accept whatever conditions the West imposes, could possibly be considered “imperialist.” I’m guessing people will just be like, “Well what if they invaded Taiwan? The things happening purely in my imagination prove China bad.”
You can make the argument for Russia but I really don’t understand how China, a country that has been at peace for over 40 years and which is developing an alternative economic sphere such that countries are not forced to accept whatever conditions the West imposes, could possibly be considered “imperialist.”
Any conflict between the US and China in the Pacific Rim is described as “US Imperialism” from the Chinese perspective and “Chinese Imperialism” from the US perspective.
Any claim China makes along its border regions is Imperialism. Any naval actions made by the Chinese military is Imperialism. Any police action inside the recognized territory of China is imperialism. The entire 1.4B person population is routinely described as a Han monoculture.
The national economic plan is at once a failed project, doomed to collapse within the year, and a sinister plot to steal global market share for the most villainous purposes imaginable. China is, at once, the world’s biggest polluter and the perpetuator of a string of environmentalist “hoaxes”. It’s producing commodities, like consumer electronics and cars and steel girders and plastic widgets, too cheaply and quickly. But it’s also dogged by inefficient bureaucracy and COVID restrictions and an inherent cultural disinterest in entrepreneurship, so the country is constantly lacking essentials.
So they need to go out and steal other people’s stuff, whether its Taiwanese semiconductors or Middle Eastern fossil fuels or East African mineral wealth. And the government accomplishes this by tricking idiot liberals into doing business with them, while secretly infiltrating their societies with the most black-handed saboteurs and spies and assassins.
China is ontologically evil. Its politics is so authoritarian that the people don’t even realize they are being oppressed. But also the people DO realize they are oppressed and yearn for freedom. And if you don’t understand all of this to be true, you’re either an idiot or a LLM programmed to ignore the obvious and trick other people just like an Evil Chinese would.
Good comment!
Any conflict between the US and China in the Pacific Rim is described as “US Imperialism” from the Chinese perspective and “Chinese Imperialism” from the US perspective.
Which is hilarious because there’s absolutely no equivalency here. China is not running warships through the Florida Keys or in the Long Island Sound. The US is running warships off the coast of China and has Marines stationed 4 miles off the coast inside a territory that the UN recognizes as a province of the state of China. The US are clearly in the wrong here. This both-sides position is ridiculous
Any claim China makes along its border regions is Imperialism.
For those who don’t know, this statement is completely untrue, with ZERO historical basis, and ZERO consistency. This is intellectual dishonesty when spoken by people with knowledge. It’s just parroting propaganda when ignorant people say it.
China is ontologically evil
And people question why we say that the USA is the most propagandized people on the planet.
Which is hilarious because there’s absolutely no equivalency here. China is not running warships through the Florida Keys or in the Long Island Sound. The US is running warships off the coast of China and has Marines stationed 4 miles off the coast inside a territory that the UN recognizes as a province of the state of China. The US are clearly in the wrong here. This both-sides position is ridiculous
I can’t help map the history of Taiwan against the history of Cuba, when it comes to the topic of “imperialism”.
On the one hand, you have an island that was actually and repeatedly invaded by Western governments, conquered and liberated and conquered again. Bombed, embargoed, sabotaged, sanctioned, its leaders subjected to hundreds of assassination attempts. The explicit stated goal of the imperial neighbor is “regime change”. The implicit unstated goal is subjugation leading to a full-on ethnic cleansing, to clear the way for a new generation of colonial settlers to occupy vacant real estate.
On the other, you have an island that is heavily incorporated into its neighbor’s economic ecosystem. People freely travel to and from the mainland. Citizenship is muddy by design, because the Eastern government wants to encourage islanders to recognize themselves as full citizens of the neighboring state. And Taiwanese businesses are happy to take advantage of this arrangement, exploiting their special status to function as a bridge between mainland businesses (under sanction by Western governments) and Western customers (hungry for cheap, high quality Chinese goods).
Cuba is impoverished as a matter of US foreign policy.
Taiwan is enriched as a matter of Chinese foreign and domestic policies.
One of these countries has been in the headlines for decades, with hysterical predictions of an imminent military occupation. And it isn’t Cuba.
And people question why we say that the USA is the most propagandized people on the planet.
The ways chauvanism can manifest and reassert itself, even when people rational recognize it as a bad thing in the abstract, are so crazy. The internalized indoctrination works like some kind of demon constantly whispering in people’s heads, trying to get them to come back around to “America #1!”
Criticism will either be overly specific, “This is just because of Trump, I miss when we had respectable Republicans like Bush,” or it will be overly general, “Yes, the US is bad, but only in the sense that all governments are bad.” Anything to avoid the conclusion that the US just fucking sucks.
If the American government fails it must either be an exception, or an inherent flaw in all governments, because we’re the smartest, best, most moral and freedom-loving people in the world. Impossible that foreigners could succeed where we failed, if we failed, it could only be because the task is impossible. That’s how the chauvanists think, and so the conclusion is already determined before a single actual fact is considered.
Anything to avoid the conclusion that the US just fucking sucks.
Even that is overly broad and kinda skitters over what it is that makes US empire a global horror.
Like, “ah bummer man the US sucks” doesn’t do justice to the pile of bloody backpacks at the Minab school attack. It feels almost trite to say “The child murder needs to stop”, but so much US policy - foreign and domestic - is about slaughtering children by the millions. It’s not just a “aw shucks things are bad”. It’s a global campaign of eugenics, driven by a handful of plutocrats who have pegged their collective future on the advent of Computer God.
Impossible that foreigners could succeed where we failed
Unless they’re Norwegian, for some reason. Only the Scandinavians - the whitest of the white Europeans - are allowed to claim anything approaching “Functional Socialism”. And only when they build their society on the back of a petro-state.
It feels almost trite to say “The child murder needs to stop”, but so much US policy - foreign and domestic - is about slaughtering children by the millions.
Classic “no way to prevent this” says only nation where this regularly happens. A part of me just wishes that the horrors could be contained to within our borders, but we have to make all of our shit everyone’s problem.
Only the Scandinavians - the whitest of the white Europeans - are allowed to claim anything approaching “Functional Socialism”.
The funniest part about this is how many people will be like, “The best approach is a mixture of socialism and capitalism” which is exactly what China is doing. I’ve tried so many times to get a coherent answer from the “China bad because billionaires” types as to whether the reforms in the 80’s were good or bad. The only response you’ll ever get from most of them is to call you a fascist for asking.
I’m blessed with having long-time friends from various places in the world.
Had me in the first half, ngl.
https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/territorial-disputes-south-china-sea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan
Ask literally any average Southeast Asian citizen about China’s influence on their country, and you’ll get a sense of Chinese imperialist ambitions.
I’m brushing over the long history of Han ethnic expansionism and the literal war with communist Vietnam over their supposed vassal-state of Cambodia.
https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/territorial-disputes-south-china-sea
Territorial disputes without violence. China hasn’t fired on a ship since 1988. They have engaged in territorial disputes over the SCS without engaging in violence. If you want to understand what the alternative would look like, I direct you to the events in the Caribbean.
The UN recognizes Taiwan as a province of China and has done so without interruption for many decades.
Ask literally any average Southeast Asian citizen about China’s influence on their country, and you’ll get a sense of Chinese imperialist ambitions.
And yet, China is not actually doing anything resembling imperialism. You project psychology (ambitions) onto a nation-state (China) because that’s all you understand. You don’t understand what the possible alternatives are.
I’m brushing over the long history of Han ethnic expansionism and the literal war with communist Vietnam over their supposed vassal-state of Cambodia.
Chinese imperialism during the dynastic era is not only well understood and recognized, it’s openly discussed in China as the wrong solution to statecraft. Chinese violent and wrong-headed foreign policy during Mao’s leadership are also openly discussed in China as the wrong solution to statecraft. The government has openly declared that those decisions were incorrect and have openly established that they are taking a new direction based on more accurate understandings of the principles of statecraft and the consequences of those actions.
They have engaged in territorial disputes over the SCS without engaging in violence.
This isn’t exactly true. The level of violence they have engaged in thus far has been limited but they have absolutely engaged in violence. The same is true for the disputed territory with India. There is regular violence, but it is limited with lines that they have not crossed (i.e. they aren’t out there firing missiles and dropping bombs, they doing things like ramming fishing boats or beating people with clubs). I think you are going to be very disappointed by China if you genuinely believe the current government is pacifist or lacks an imperial agenda.
The border dispute with between India and China over that specific border is both millennia old and exacerbated by European colonialism in the region defining boundaries by dictatorial decree. The fact that the border is policed by armed guards wielding clubs is by mutual agreement between India and China and the fact that there was a skirmish is not the same as “China is out there beating innocent people with clubs for their own territorial gains”.
As for ramming fishing boats, look at Operation 34A. The US has a history in the region of using fishing boats to lay mines covertly to avoid triggering a response or causing an international incident. The US soldiers were unmarked, wearing civilian clothing and the boats were design deliberately to look like civilian fishing boats.
When you don’t know history, it’s difficult to understand the present.
If you think China engaged in top-to-bottom self criticism and established the official opinion that previous foreign policy under Mao was incorrect and not beneficial to the Chinese state means that after 40 years of non-violent growth they maintain imperial ambitions because they are still managing ancient border disputes and are defending against real threats from the most violent psychopaths on the planet, I don’t know what to tell you.
Operation 34A
I’m sorry but this does not come across like a serious argument. China is not ramming fishing vessels because the US once clandestinely deployed mines in the 1960’s. If you genuinely believe that I don’t know what to say except I hope you develop a more nuanced and realistic understanding of the world.
Re: China beating innocent people with clubs, I didn’t quite say that. I am sure some random innocent people have been caught up in it and beaten but on balance I think it has primarily been mutual combat involving provocations from both sides in the India/China border dispute.
I don’t think “40 years of non-violent growth” is an accurate statement at all. I can agree that contemporary Chinese imperialism doesn’t look like US imperialism and has utilized less violence overall. I think your framing of China vs. violent psychopaths is inherently flawed. China may or may not have fewer of those kinds of people in power compared to other governments, but it has plenty. It’s an inescapable fact of humanity that those people exist and have a tendency to seek power, and that power has a tendency to bring out those characteristics in people. There is nothing special about the people of China that make them better than the rest of humanity, the same problems of humanity manifest in China as everywhere else on the planet.
China is not ramming fishing vessels because the US once clandestinely deployed mines in the 1960’s.
So what you’re saying is that China has no valid security concerns behind their actions?
I don’t think “40 years of non-violent growth” is an accurate statement at all.
Let’s see why.
I can agree that contemporary Chinese imperialism doesn’t look like US imperialism and has utilized less
Well, since 1992 the US has conduct major kinetic military operations against over 14 countries, completely destroying at least 3 of them. Since 1992, China hasn’t fired a shot against anyone. So, yeah, doesn’t look like it at all. Less as in zero.
I think your framing of China vs. violent psychopaths is inherently flawed.
Fair. White supremacist Christian Eurocentric empire has only dominated every continent for 600 years, with most national borders across the whole world defined by genocidaires and child rapists, and military bases all over the world that are immune to local laws where young women are kidnapped, raped, and murdered by soldiers weekly and everyone knows it but no one can do anything about because of the violent psychopaths (sorry, I meant USians, who are just like everyone else). Not to mention the US criminal justice system monitoring and managing at least over 3x the number of prisoners and parolees as the next highest country in the world with some of the worst outcomes, worst recidivism rates, and economic extraction practices compared to literally anyone.
But fair, maybe my framing is uncharitable.
China may or may not have fewer of those kinds of people in power compared to other governments, but it has plenty.
Granted. Is it driving the same outcomes? No. It’s not. The outcomes are substantially and consistently better and have been for decades without interruption.
It’s an inescapable fact of humanity that those people exist and have a tendency to seek power, and that power has a tendency to bring out those characteristics in people.
And it is the job of a society to develop the social technologies necessary to manage those characteristics effectively. Eurocentric society is the world-crowning pinnacle of what happens when you fail - patriarchal white supremacist ChristoFascist genocidal child raping oligarchs committing mass murder on every inhabited continent to prove how civilized they are.
There is nothing special about the people of China that make them better than the rest of humanity, the same problems of humanity manifest in China as everywhere else on the planet.
And yet, the outcomes are different. Is that because Chinese people are racially superior? No. It’s because Chinese society has developed superior social technology for managing these problems.
China is not ramming fishing vessels because the US once clandestinely deployed mines in the 1960’s.So what you’re saying is that China has no valid security concerns behind their actions?
WTF dude. No, that is not what I said. I quit right there because this is a complete non sequitur. Good luck with your ideas, I am out.
Read up on the Chinese Ethnic Unity Law
Some exerpts:
Article 4 In advancing the building of the community for the Chinese nation, economic, political, cultural, social and ecological-civilization development shall be coordinated; common prosperity and development for all ethnic groups shall be fully realized; the people of all ethnic groups shall be ensured the ability to jointly act as masters of the country; a shared spiritual home for the Chinese nation shall be built; all-round mutual embeddedness and extensive interaction, exchange and integration among all ethnic groups shall be promoted; an ecological home in which humanity and nature coexist in harmony shall be jointly protected; and the Chinese nation shall be developed into a community with a stronger sense of identity and greater cohesion.
Article 5 Citizens of the People’s Republic of China are equal before the law. All ethnic groups in the People’s Republic of China are equal. Discrimination against or oppression of any ethnic group is prohibited.
Article 6 A sense of community for the Chinese nation is the foundation of ethnic unity. The state shall increase commonality while respecting and accommodating differences, promote mutual support and harmonious coexistence among all ethnic groups, and safeguard the great unity of the Chinese nation. Acts that undermine ethnic unity or create ethnic separatism are prohibited.
Article 8 The state shall uphold and improve the system of regional ethnic autonomy and safeguard national unity and ethnic unity.
Article 9 The state shall govern ethnic affairs in accordance with law, protect the lawful rights and interests of the people of all ethnic groups in accordance with law, strengthen publicity and education concerning the Constitution and laws, enhance the awareness of the state, citizenship and the rule of law among the people of all ethnic groups, safeguard the unity, dignity and authority of the socialist rule of law, and modernize the system and capacity for governance of ethnic affairs within the framework of the rule of law.
Article 15 The state shall comprehensively promote and popularize the standard spoken and written Chinese language. No organization or individual may obstruct citizens from learning or using the standard spoken and written Chinese language. Schools and other educational institutions shall use the standard spoken and written Chinese language as the basic language of education and instruction. The state shall promote the learning of Putonghua by preschool children and the basic mastery of the standard spoken and written Chinese language by young people who complete compulsory education. State organs shall use the standard spoken and written Chinese language for official purposes. Where documents are required by relevant laws to be issued in the spoken and written language of an ethnic minority, versions in both the standard spoken and written Chinese language and the minority language shall be provided. Where state organs, social organizations, enterprises, public institutions or other social organizations need to use both the standard spoken and written Chinese language and the spoken and written language of an ethnic minority in a public setting, prominence shall be given to the standard spoken and written Chinese language in terms of placement, order and other respects. The state shall respect and protect the learning and use of the spoken and written languages of ethnic minorities, promote their standardization, normalization and digital development, and support the preservation, collation, study and use of ancient books and records in minority languages.
Article 16 Schools and other educational institutions of all types and at all levels shall carry the requirements for fostering a strong sense of community for the Chinese nation through the entire education process and incorporate them into an education system combining classroom instruction, social practice, themed education and online education. Schools and other educational institutions of all types and at all levels shall use state-compiled textbooks in accordance with relevant state provisions. Education administrative departments shall implement the requirements for fostering a strong sense of community for the Chinese nation in the preparation and review of teaching materials. The departments of the State Council responsible for education administration, ethnic affairs and related work shall organize the preparation of series of textbooks or readers concerning the community for the Chinese nation.
Article 29 The state shall enhance mutual learning and integration among the cultures of all ethnic groups and encourage all ethnic groups to appreciate one another’s fine traditional cultures and learn one another’s spoken and written languages. People’s governments at all levels shall support cultural workers and relevant entities in creating and presenting literary and artistic works that are grounded in Chinese culture and reflect interaction, exchange and integration among all ethnic groups. People’s governments at all levels shall support libraries, museums, cultural centers and stations, memorial halls, art museums, science and technology museums, workers’ cultural palaces, children’s and youth palaces and other public cultural-service entities in conducting exhibitions and exchange activities concerning the history of the Chinese nation, national prosperity and development, and related subjects. People’s governments at all levels shall draw on the Chinese nation’s rich cultural, sporting and other resources to encourage and support exchange activities, including traditional festivals of the Chinese nation, folk culture events and sporting competitions, that are welcomed and jointly participated in by the people of all ethnic groups.
So scary for our government with mandated representation of minorities to wish to encourage cultural exchange while instituting a common tongue to allow for our social and physical mobility while continuing to encourage the teaching of minority languages and writing systems. 😱
You do realise that documents like that are used to stop discussion, and are pointed to by people saying “look, we HAVE equality so stop making a fuss”.
China has a lot of that, and things like bonus 高考 points for ethnic minorities are an often used rallying cry by the Han suoremists as an example of how things have gone too far (and unlike the coming one, this one is allowed to be broadcast on B站 and other sites and doesn’t get pulled down).
Then you’ve got huge amounts of prejudice against ethnic groups, with negative stereotypes of them as thieves, or violent.
And a two tier policing system, where ethnic minority folks in Yunnan and Guizhou, for example, feel that they can’t hunt or forage in traditional styles because it’s in violation of the law, but Han people in the same towns do it (and you can see/find them flogging poached wildlife in the town market) without a care.Meanwhile the “economic development” of ethnic tourism primarily leads to people from 东北 moving in and buying up land and making the profits, while local Han get middle management positions, and the ethnic minority folks get to be the side show, singers, or worst I’ve seen - dancing girls who are chastised for trying to get the Han 叔叔 to leave them alone.
But they’re an oppressive evil dictatorship, why would they need to save face? Maybe just accept that you’ve drunk the Koolaid.
… Why would massively face conscious culture China care about face?
You’ve got so much irony I can’t even tell what point you’re trying to make.
No irony here. The way people in general on reddit and adjacent platforms (not you necessarily, just the way Chinese politics is spoken about) you’d think that the CPC can do whatever it pleases without care for anything. So which is it? And why are you so cynical about the genuineness of laws stating that all Chinese are equal, regardless of ethnicity?
Oh, a lot of people know nothing about the PRC or China in general. It’s infuriating.
Often either a utopia or the most evil and terrible distopia, blergh. It’s a place, full of myriad people, ideas, ways of being, and their own contradictions.I’m used to people assuming I’m at the other extreme pole, when really I’m just trying to complicate the picture and share a bit of what I learnt and saw while living in the PRC for several years - where I found something much more interesting than either idealised extreme.
Edit: and in answer to your question: of course the CCP can’t do whatever it pleases without a care for anything. It’s too faction ridden, broad, and worried about 3rd roads, dissent, and popular unrest for that. It values stability, peaceful day to day living, and being able to return its side of the social contract. But that also means that small factions that could upset or displace the sense of harmony, such as traditional ethnic minority ways of life, habits, etc. are not given much time. They need to Modernise and Develop, like the rest regardless of what those people actually think, do, or want.
Having spent a lot of time in Yunnan and Guizhou, I’ve seen enough of it myself, sadly.
More complicated than what most people think considering the history of Taiwan. Imagine if fascist in your country seized a region via ethnic cleansing and then created a break away state. Would your country be happy to recognize it as an independent nation? The only thing that complicates this is they eventually established a somewhat democratic government, after +40 years of violent authoritarianism.
Ask literally any average Southeast Asian citizen about China’s influence on their country, and you’ll get a sense of Chinese imperialist ambitions.
Eh… Comparatively I think you would hear worse if you asked them about western ambitions.
China is a superpower, you don’t get to that status without flexing that power. The reality is that every superpower in history regardless of what social economic system they utilize has to compete with an established hegemony to upset the status quo. You can label that as imperialism if you want However that opens the debate on how we quantify imperialism, and the only real way to do that is by comparison.
Compared to the leading superpower I’d hardly say their activity in their own backyard really can’t be compared to what the US is currently doing to control a waterway right now.
I’m brushing over the long history of Han ethnic expansionism
I think Han chauvinism has long been an issue within China, even Mao spoke about it during his time in power. Do I think it’s as dire as it’s depicted in western media? No, but I do hope that the CCP takes more steps to integrate ethnic minorities into positions in higher government like the politburo. That being said, is the treatment of ethnic minorities on the same level or worse than in western nations…? Not really, which leads me to believe that ethnic chauvinism isn’t really a problem specific to any government or economic system.
war with communist Vietnam over their supposed vassal-state of Cambodia.
Which the CCP openly admits was a misguided mistake, and apparently unlike other superpowers was something they actually learned from.
Would your country be happy to recognize it as an independent nation
Self-determination is a virtue. Holding onto the claims of your forefathers is problematic to say the least. History of Israel and all that.
Comparatively I think you would hear worse if you asked them about western ambitions.
Anecdotally, I have experienced the opposite. I oppose US imperialism too. It’s all bad
You can label that as imperialism if you want However that opens the debate on how we quantify imperialism, and the only real way to do that is by comparison.
This is a non-answer. You want to discuss the nature of power and dynamics. Doing an imperialism because your neighbor did an imperialism does not make it morally correct, in fact it’s likely to lead to a cascade into conflict. This is not US or Russia apologia, everyone should rail them for doing that. Making excuses for China doing the same is the weakest take you can have in a conversation on the topic of morality.
On the topic of Han ethnicity, we should always be wary of the concept of ethnicity in political policy, rather than people as people.
Great to hear that the CCP is willing to admit a few mistakes. Really puts into perspective how bad Trump is.
The non-western world’s current stance on LGBTQ+ will always make the US and Europe better places to exist for personal choice and freedoms. Until that changes, Chinese / Russian apologists will always be treated with derision and Fox News level credibility. FYI
Self-determination is a virtue. Holding onto the claims of your forefathers is problematic to say the least. History of Israel and all that.
Is it always a virtue? For example, was the Arrow Cross party taking over Hungary and helping exterminate 500k Hungarian Jews a virtuous act of self determination?
I oppose US imperialism too. It’s all bad
I think we can agree that any foreign nation flexing their power their smaller neighboring countries is bad, but we are making a comparison here. You can disagree with the actions of both countries and still compare their actions against each other.
This is a non-answer. You want to discuss the nature of power and dynamics.
My point wasn’t supposed to be interpreted as a definitive answer. It was a way to open the discussion to further evaluation.
Doing an imperialism because your neighbor did an imperialism does not make it morally correct, in fact it’s likely to lead to a cascade into conflict.
To have an actual discussion about this we would have to first define what you think imperialism actually is. That way we can separate acts of imperialism, and actions taken to bulwark against encroaching imperialism.
Imo morality rarely comes into play when super powers enact geopolitical strategy. As observers we can analyze the resulting fallout of those strategies, but I think it’s a mistake to assume morality in their intent.
excuses for China doing the same is the weakest take you can have in a conversation on the topic of morality.
I don’t think I really brought up morality, I was focused more on outcomes of their actions.
The non-western world’s current stance on LGBTQ+ will always make the US and Europe better places to exist for personal choice and freedoms.
Ehh… It kinda depends on what country you are talking about in Europe and honestly the US is back sliding on that front as well.
Many East Asian countries including China have actually made a lot of progress for the LGBT populations there. The Chinese government tends to take a hands off approach, going so far as to adopt the “Three Nos” position as in “no approval, no disapproval, and no promotion”.
Most LGBT people in East Asia are a lot more affected by their own family’s perception rather than the government. The wide influence of Confucianism makes any changes to family structure a slow and difficult process. Though the general acceptance among young urban people has been pretty rapid.
Until that changes, Chinese / Russian apologists will always be treated with derision and Fox News level credibility. FYI
I think that’s making a hasty generalization… I can in fact believe that China has a better track record on foreign policy than most western countries, and still be critical about some of their domestic policy. Does that make me an apologist, or were you just creating a false dichotomy?
I also don’t really know what Russia has to do with anything I’ve said? We were talking about eastern and/or socialist countries…Russia isn’t either of those. FYI
Is it always a virtue?
Yes. Nazi’s killing Jews is explicitly against the self-determination of said Hungarian Jews. To shorthand this argument: People make countries, countries don’t make people.
still compare their actions against each other.
I set the line at morality in my subsequent responses. Comparing two hegemon’s actions in discussions often falls into the Argumentum ad antiquitatem fallacy.
My first post was explicitly calling out the downplaying of Chinese imperialism from the OP. I don’t have time lately to discuss geopolitical strategies of hegemons, as you will see with this truncated response, but I will call out influence tactics of the either ill-informed or state-paid actors. Hence, bringing Russia into this.
As for LGBTQ+, I have no interest in modeling state systems that are behind on personal freedoms such as these. It’s good to hear things are changing, and I hope they do for everyone’s sake, but watching even the more “freedom” minded places utilize LGBTQs as scapegoats for conservative failings gives me little hope for the timeline of places where they are not legally recognized.
Minor border disputes are not imperialism.
I’m brushing over the long history of Han ethnic expansionism
Projection.
and the literal war with communist Vietnam
Over 40 years ago lol. If the US had been at peace since Vietnam, I’d have very different opinions about it.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/imperialism
imperialism, state policy, practice, or advocacy of extending power and dominion, especially by direct territorial acquisition or by gaining political and economic control of other areas
Bruh can’t even read a dictionary, lmao.
Projection
Lmao, who do you even think I am?
The US is bad too. If you’re going to be anti-imperialist then you need to be against all imperialism and not just the one you were told to hate.
The vitriol toward defending China in this second response, at any cost, gives you away.
Using the Britannica definition of Imperialism is like using the IDF definition of antisemitism. It isn’t actually very persuasive, bcs it gives you away as either a shill for the existing world order or a useful idiot for the same.
Imperialism is the stage of capitalism where finance capital overtakes commodity production. That’s a gross oversimplification, but it’ll do for the level of debate in this thread.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/imperialism.pdf
Neither China nor Russia is an Imperialist power because in neither state has capitalist control over markets led to the rise of finance capital overtaking commodity production as the main basis of the economy.
Using what’s widely respected as one of the most accurate sources available isn’t acceptable so you bust out quotes from Lenin as the reliable source? Lol
I find it incredible funny that I have seen many other people (me included) criticizing their country, all of the countries really… but I have never seen Objection saying a negative word about China. Not even once. On any matter.
I generally don’t go around shit-talking other countries that I don’t live in and have never been to. The only real exceptions being ones that are receiving military aid from my own country, such as Israel, because that makes it relevant to me.
For the record, I have and do criticize China on certain things, such as LGBT rights. But again, that’s pretty irrelevant to any political questions that are actually relevant to me and my life. What am I going to do about problems in China? What levers of power can I or should I assert to address their problems? It kinda seems like I should probably be a little bit more concerned about all the horrible things my own country is doing. Don’t talk shit about a splinter in their eye when there’s a wooden board in your own or something.
If there was a way for me to assert some lever of power against China, it would be through my own government. But that would only be a valid thing to do if my government wasn’t doing worse things, which is why it’s relevant to point out that the US is worse, in spite of the inevitable response of “whataboutism.”
If the discourse around here was upholding China as some utopia that we should all try to emulate in every regard, you would see me criticize it more. But because the discourse is more about how evil every single thing it does is, how every accusation should be believed completely uncritically, how we should support Western governments acting against it, etc, it’s only natural that that’s what you see me pushing back against the most.
For the record, I have and do criticize China on certain things, such as LGBT rights
Your profile motto:
If someone claims something happened on the fediverse without providing a link, they’re lying.
Evidence or GTFO.
China’s modern day homophobia does not come from a place of “The Buddha said this was bad,” rather, it comes from seeing homosexuality as a Western invention, and a symptom of “bourgeois decadence.” Sadly, such brainworms are common in many socialist countries. There is a stereotype many people have that gay people all live in cities and spend all our time partying at nightclubs, because that makes for better TV than the reality does.
imperialism, state policy, practice, or advocacy of extending power and dominion, especially by direct territorial acquisition or by gaining political and economic control of other areas
That’s still not the same as minor border disputes.
The US is bad too. If you’re going to be anti-imperialist then you need to be against all imperialism and not just the one you were told to hate.
Yes, decades long occupations, minor border clashes, both equally bad and equally requiring staunch opposition. You gonna go full “while lives matter” next? Or can we agree that focusing on the much, much bigger problem should be the priority?
The vitriol toward defending China in this second response, at any cost, gives you away.
“Gives me away” as what? If you’re going to accuse me of something, say it to my face.
It’s a lemmy.ml account, don’t bother feeding the propaganda bot
They brigaded you Dagnet. RIP.
Purged like their authoritarian heroes wished for dissidents, downvotes to the back of the head. :,(
Damn, my comment got removed, I wonder who did it, and admin perhaps?
And so they prove my point. Luckily those downvotes are as meaningless as their opinions
Being wildly unpopular does nothing to prove you right or wrong
I’m so glad nobody cares when the US does “minor border disputes” the way they care about when China does it.
Oh wait…
I don’t care at all about any minor US border disputes. I’m not even aware of them. I do care about unprovoked decades-long invasions and occupations of sovereign countries, and things like that.
I swear to God, like can you even imagine how peaceful and wonderful the world would look if US was no more aggressive than China? Like, if the only things to criticize the US for were not doing landback or stuff that happened long before I was born, and maybe like one exchange of gunfire over Guantanamo Bay or something?
Such a world almost seemed possible when I was growing up in the 90’s. A period of relative peace (not counting bombing Yugoslavia) and optimism. But that was absolutely terrifying to our rulers. Do you know what world peace would do to companies like Raytheon and Lockheed Martin? No, instead we just have endless war and aggression, in every single corner of the world.
My own family paid the cost of your stupid imperialistic ambitions. My brother came back from the war so fucked up he nearly became a mass shooter. It was the most traumatic experience any of us have ever had.
Who the fuck is experiencing that because of the Chinese government? You think border disputes are equivalent to that? You’re completely full of shit. You have zero understanding of just how horrific war is. I don’t either, because I only got the secondhand exposure. But you go around, talking shit, saying that our government is no worse than others, blissfully ignorant because of the great strides our media goes to to shield you from the reality of what our soldiers are doing on the other side of that wall.
Fuck you. Fucking liberals, imperialist apologists, chauvanists the lot of you.
Tankie.
And proud of it. Because anyone who thinks critically, acknowledges basic, objective facts about reality, anyone who questions their own government and confronts their own presumptions and prejudices, is a “tankie” to you liberal, imperialist, chauvinists.
At least I don’t have the blood of a million Middle Easterners on my hands like you do.
Holy based
Tankie.
